Lance, the problem is that the 'woman bashing' that you read into it is from a false stereotype that has been programmed into your mind from this present world system. This mindset is actually a delusion, a deconstruction of something real into something that is not real. It is the spirit of Anti-Christ. This is the same problem I have preaching on campus about homosexuality, or having a sign that says, "help prevent homosexuality." With such a message of hope to help the homosexual, I am immediately typecast into being a hatemonger and homophobe. Why? Because the bigotry and false stereotype that has been programmed into the minds of others, that anybody who believes that homosexuality is immoral or preventable is filled with hate.
Did you even read the context of Tertullian's message here? Please look it up. If you need me to do the homework for you and paste the text here or provide a link, let me know. Please consider his context and his audience. He was speaking to REBELLIOUS women, whose heart it was to alter the Creator's work upon them, by dying their hair yellow, and wearing black eyeliner, and foundation makeup, and braiding the hair, and wearing jewelry and ornaments, fine clothes of purple, etc. This is a GENDER issue. Men generally speaking are not prone to spending an inordinate amount of time trying to make themselves attractive in this way. Why do the women do it and not the men? There are several explanations. Tertullian was giving his perspective, based in Scripture, a passage from the book of Genesis which all seem to accept as Scripture, and text from the book of Enoch, which Tertullian accepted as Scripture but realized that not everybody did. In the context in which he spoke this, I have no problem with him speaking a reproof to women in this way, reminding them of Eve's sin and how their deception about this wearing of makeup is similar. He gave a historical backdrop, and his reason for all of this was not to suppress women, but to elevate them. He was contrasting the condemned and cursed condition and linking the wearing of makeup to this with the gospel believing liberated woman, who is promised the same dignity of men in the resurrection, a seat from which to judge the very angels that taught the women to wear makeup and do other things besides. Even if you think his reasoning has problems, you should not misrepresent him as being somebody who was mistreating women or as someone engaged in 'woman bashing.' The only way this idea has any way of flying is if it is lifted out of context and misrepresented as you and Debbie have done by sharing these quotes in the way that you did. I think you do this out of ignorance, but the problem is that you are probably even ignorant of the fact that you do it in ignorance. That is the problem with delusion. You don't know that you are actually believing a lie. David Miller. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 8:21 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem. God- Dave H. get bathing suit. IFO could read more than a little 'woman bashing' herein, David/Dean. I don't believe that either of the two of you would as, IMO, you both adopt a more traditionalist understanding of the role of men/women..husbands/wives. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: February 12, 2006 08:05 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem. God- Dave H. get bathing suit. > Thank you David for this. > > >> [Original Message] >> From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> >> Date: 2/11/2006 9:37:40 PM >> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem. God- Dave H. get bathing suit. >> >> Lance wrote: >> > And do you not know that you are an Eve? >> > The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives >> > in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. >> > You are the devil's gateway: you are the unsealer >> > of that tree: you are the first deserter of the divine >> > law: you are she who persuaded him whom the >> > devil was not valiant enough to attack. You >> > destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account >> > of your desert - that is, death - even the Son of God >> > had to die. ~ Tertullian, Second Century >> >> The context of this is from a paragraph about modesty in apparel becoming > to >> women. The quote stops short in that some sentences later, he concludes >> this train of thought by saying: >> "Accordingly these things are all the baggage of woman in her condemned > and >> dead state, instituted as if to swell the pomp of her funeral." >> >> So he was not denigrating women here. He was establishing some > historical >> guidelines, expounding upon the judgment of God toward the woman which > said, >> "In pains and in anxieties dost thou bear (children), woman; and toward >> thine husband (is) thy inclination, and he lords It over thee." > Tertullian >> quoted this passage just before the quote given by Debbie above. > Tertullian >> then goes on, based upon the writings of Enoch (which he holds to be >> Scripture but recognizes that the Jews did not because they did not think >> such writings could survive the flood, but Tertullian believed Noah, > Enoch's >> great grandson, to have taken it with him in the ark), to argue that > women >> who wear mascara and jewelry and fine ornaments were taught this by the >> angels that had sinned and come down and married women. He points out > that >> these same angels are the angels that we will judge, and if we will judge >> them, what is it that women have to do with these things they brought to > us, >> being consumed with putting on makeup on their face, or coloring their > hair, >> or wearing fine jewelry. He points out that these are things of the > earth >> and nothing that women of God ought to be concerned with. Then he points >> out that the promise of judging these angels also is given to women; >> therefore, they ought not be involved with these things that were >> dishonoring to the Creator. Tertullian writes: >> >> "For you too, (women as you are,) have the selfsame angelic nature > promised >> as your reward, the selfsame sex as men: the selfsame advancement to the >> dignity of judging, does (the Lord) promise you." >> >> Such a statement is along the lines of there being no male or female in > the >> eyes of God. It is an empowering statement, that women will be made > judges >> of angels on an equal level with men, so the quote taken out of context > to >> make Tertullian look like a woman basher is erroneous. Debbie would be > wise >> to hear the end of his conversation. >> >> David Miller. >> >> ---------- >> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org >> >> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > > > ---------- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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