Lance, the problem is that the 'woman bashing' that you read into it is
from
a false stereotype that has been programmed into your mind from this
present
world system. This mindset is actually a delusion, a deconstruction of
something real into something that is not real. It is the spirit of
Anti-Christ. This is the same problem I have preaching on campus about
homosexuality, or having a sign that says, "help prevent homosexuality."
With such a message of hope to help the homosexual, I am immediately
typecast into being a hatemonger and homophobe. Why? Because the bigotry
and false stereotype that has been programmed into the minds of others,
that
anybody who believes that homosexuality is immoral or preventable is
filled
with hate.
Did you even read the context of Tertullian's message here? Please look
it
up. If you need me to do the homework for you and paste the text here or
provide a link, let me know.
Please consider his context and his audience. He was speaking to
REBELLIOUS
women, whose heart it was to alter the Creator's work upon them, by dying
their hair yellow, and wearing black eyeliner, and foundation makeup, and
braiding the hair, and wearing jewelry and ornaments, fine clothes of
purple, etc. This is a GENDER issue. Men generally speaking are not
prone
to spending an inordinate amount of time trying to make themselves
attractive in this way. Why do the women do it and not the men? There
are
several explanations. Tertullian was giving his perspective, based in
Scripture, a passage from the book of Genesis which all seem to accept as
Scripture, and text from the book of Enoch, which Tertullian accepted as
Scripture but realized that not everybody did. In the context in which he
spoke this, I have no problem with him speaking a reproof to women in this
way, reminding them of Eve's sin and how their deception about this
wearing
of makeup is similar. He gave a historical backdrop, and his reason for
all
of this was not to suppress women, but to elevate them. He was
contrasting
the condemned and cursed condition and linking the wearing of makeup to
this
with the gospel believing liberated woman, who is promised the same
dignity
of men in the resurrection, a seat from which to judge the very angels
that
taught the women to wear makeup and do other things besides. Even if you
think his reasoning has problems, you should not misrepresent him as being
somebody who was mistreating women or as someone engaged in 'woman
bashing.'
The only way this idea has any way of flying is if it is lifted out of
context and misrepresented as you and Debbie have done by sharing these
quotes in the way that you did. I think you do this out of ignorance, but
the problem is that you are probably even ignorant of the fact that you do
it in ignorance. That is the problem with delusion. You don't know that
you are actually believing a lie.
David Miller.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem. God- Dave H. get bathing suit.
IFO could read more than a little 'woman bashing' herein, David/Dean. I
don't believe that either of the two of you would as, IMO, you both adopt
a
more traditionalist understanding of the role of
men/women..husbands/wives.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dean Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Sent: February 12, 2006 08:05
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem. God- Dave H. get bathing suit.
Thank you David for this.
[Original Message]
From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org>
Date: 2/11/2006 9:37:40 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Fem. God- Dave H. get bathing suit.
Lance wrote:
> And do you not know that you are an Eve?
> The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives
> in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too.
> You are the devil's gateway: you are the unsealer
> of that tree: you are the first deserter of the divine
> law: you are she who persuaded him whom the
> devil was not valiant enough to attack. You
> destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account
> of your desert - that is, death - even the Son of God
> had to die. ~ Tertullian, Second Century
The context of this is from a paragraph about modesty in apparel
becoming
to
women. The quote stops short in that some sentences later, he concludes
this train of thought by saying:
"Accordingly these things are all the baggage of woman in her condemned
and
dead state, instituted as if to swell the pomp of her funeral."
So he was not denigrating women here. He was establishing some
historical
guidelines, expounding upon the judgment of God toward the woman which
said,
"In pains and in anxieties dost thou bear (children), woman; and toward
thine husband (is) thy inclination, and he lords It over thee."
Tertullian
quoted this passage just before the quote given by Debbie above.
Tertullian
then goes on, based upon the writings of Enoch (which he holds to be
Scripture but recognizes that the Jews did not because they did not
think
such writings could survive the flood, but Tertullian believed Noah,
Enoch's
great grandson, to have taken it with him in the ark), to argue that
women
who wear mascara and jewelry and fine ornaments were taught this by the
angels that had sinned and come down and married women. He points out
that
these same angels are the angels that we will judge, and if we will
judge
them, what is it that women have to do with these things they brought to
us,
being consumed with putting on makeup on their face, or coloring their
hair,
or wearing fine jewelry. He points out that these are things of the
earth
and nothing that women of God ought to be concerned with. Then he
points
out that the promise of judging these angels also is given to women;
therefore, they ought not be involved with these things that were
dishonoring to the Creator. Tertullian writes:
"For you too, (women as you are,) have the selfsame angelic nature
promised
as your reward, the selfsame sex as men: the selfsame advancement to the
dignity of judging, does (the Lord) promise you."
Such a statement is along the lines of there being no male or female in
the
eyes of God. It is an empowering statement, that women will be made
judges
of angels on an equal level with men, so the quote taken out of context
to
make Tertullian look like a woman basher is erroneous. Debbie would be
wise
to hear the end of his conversation.
David Miller.
----------
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know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
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http://www.InnGlory.org
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"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
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----------
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
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