Excellent comments, Judy. I think you are really hitting a home run
with these points.
I'm all for ministering to sinners and the sick, but my idea of ministry is
solutions and healing, not a hospital club of sick and dying folk. I have
remarked to my congregation here several times that we have too many sick
folk. I can't help but think of Paul's words to the Corinthians, that many
among them were sick and dying because they were not discerning the Lord's
body.
Just this morning, I had a talk with my 10 year old daughter Leisa who had
fallen off the monkey bars at school last Friday and sprained her
wrist. The school nurse said it was broken, but we prayed, and when the
doctor examined it, he said it was fine and didn't even charge us for the
visit. My wife insisted I buy her a wrist support for her arm, which I
did, but ever since we put that on her arm, the arm seemed to get worse.
The wrist support is not directly hurting her arm. I'm sure it is helping
in a natural way to immobilize the wrist. The problem is that the wrist
support hinders faith. I made a mistake with my faith the moment
I bought it. I wish now I had not listened to my wife and bought
it. I told my daughter this morning, if you really want your arm to
be healed immediately instead of going through weeks of pain before it is
well, you will have to get rid of the wrist support. If you believe God
for healing, you won't be putting that support on your arm. The minute you
do, you are failing to believe God. Now if you have not received healing
and you need the support, then fine, put it on, but you need to understand how
this wrist support is hindering you from believing Jesus for healing. I
told her that she has experienced healing before through us, but she is getting
to the age now where God is expecting her to exercise her own faith. I'm
hoping she ditches the wrist support and I will hear her praise report
tonight.
David Miller
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 11:34
AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] Comfort
the FORNICATORS!
David, I honestly see a huge difference.
Joanna seems to believe that those with whom she is working are in need
of help --
Maybe they are in need of help but from what Joanne
says they are not open to receive it ..
the way I remember it, the partner was bitter
against the Church for supposedly judging them
which would lead one to believe that nothing has
changed.
the Corinthians were perfectly content with doing absolutely
nothing.
How do you know they were content with doing
nothing? Some of the greatest altruistic works
are done by out and out blasphemers and
sinners.
Our churches should be full of sinners willing to ask for help, willing
to receive teaching, love,
prayer and the spirit.
The "willing" part is the crux of the issue JD.
Some are willing to receive practical help on
their terms .. or they want the cover of love but
do not want to part with their sin and tolerating
this kind of thing in the name of the Lord is
pride. Paul judged it even in his absence because
if this kind of thing persists the presence of God
leaves and we must turn to marketing etc.
like the Purpose Driven fellow is
about.
I see no similarity between Joanna and the Corinthian Carnals. I
know that you have spoken
out against the church as a "hospital," in the past and I am always
surprised at such thinking. jd
Do you recall Jesus asking the man at the pool of
Bethseda "do you want to be made well?"
Valid question. Some want the love and attention
while they coddle their soul sickness.
From:
"David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> John, in my opinion
based upon sketchy details, Joanna violated the teaching > of Paul.
Paul dealt with fornicators by instructing believers not to even >
eat with them. Paul rebuked the carnal Corinthians for doing the same
thing > Joanna was doing. Don't you see that? It is a difficult
position to take, > but that is the Scripture of 1 Cor. 3:1ff, 1
Cor. 5, etc. > > Now, we don't hear all the facts about her
situation, so there are other > possibilities here. Perhaps Joanna
did not know this person very well and > had not had time to
instruct the person in righteousness. If this person > responds to
her admonition that such is wrong, then I don't have a problem >
with her eating with the person. However, if this person is a believer who
> knows better and ju stifies his fornication with the notion that
everybody > sins, then we have a problem along the lines of 1 Cor.
Do you see it > differently? > > David Miller
> > p.s. I have eaten with ignorant Christian fornicators
many times and will > continue to do so, but it is because of their
ignorance. There are others > that know better with whom I have had
to carry the cross and cut them off, > even a family member ala
Luke 14:26. > > > ----- Original Message -----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Sent:
Wednesday, March 15, 2006 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: Fw: Fw:
[TruthTalk] Comfort the FORNICATORS! > > Perhaps my
twentieth request. It is not what I think you beleive but what >
you actually believe that is the question. If I tell you what I think you
> believe, you will just make fun of me and hurt my feelings and
stuff . > > Doe s Kevin beleive in the kind of mission
activity demonstrated by Joanna > and deemed necessary by Paul as
he ministered to a carnal but saved bunch > of disciples? >
> -------------- Original message -------------- > From:
Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > ELEVENTH REQUEST
> Please post a short summary of the position you want me to hold.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Sounds like a bear
with his foot in a trap !! > > It is so easy to set the
record straight. You are all over people or > activiity such as the
one shared by Lance and his friend, Joanna Williams, > and yet, you
now seem to want others to believe that I have misrepresented >
you. Not my intention at all. What would you do differently than Paul
> and why? Or, would you rather moan for a while? Get back to me on
that , > will you? > > Have I not quoted enough of
your position on this? Give the word -- there > is mo re. >
> dj > > -------------- Original message
-------------- > From: Kevin Deegan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I see you as standing outside
the door of the church rebuking > > Wake UP! > It's
just a NIGHMARE! > Or a personal problem... >
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Your theology is herein
included, Kevin. Now -- Back to I Cor 3:1ff. It > appears (based on
what is written) that we have a church full of carnal and >
immature people. It is my beleif that if this were a circumstance in which
> Joanna Williams could help -- she just might be doing her best to
mentor > these folk toward freedom in Christ and maturity in the
Spirit. And that > is exactly what Paul is trying to do with the
writing of this Corinthian > letter. > > I see you as
standing outside the door of the church, rebuking them to the >
hell they so richly deserve (don't we all) and doing precious little t o
> actually help these brethren.. They are alive in Christ, yet
carnal -- a > circumstance that could work harm in their lives.
This is a church with > problems (more than likely a Missionary
Baptist church.) Again, these > disciples are alive in Christ,
Christians if you will, but carnal yet in > their walk with God.
Actually, Paul deals with this weak fellowship of > saints for
several years, does he not -- perhaps three letters or more and > a
visit or two. He never recommended they be cut off from the larger
> church. > So how does Kevin deal with this Apostolic
example? Mock those who think > to do what Paul was doing -- or
????????? I am curious. Can you > answer this? telll us how the
reality that is pictured in I Cor 3:1ff works > in your thegology?
> > jd > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
-------------- Original message -------------- > From: Kevin Deegan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > No surprise here from the "community"
of salve your own conscience crowd. > God's ways? It my way or the
highway! > > SIN #1 > The sin is in doing it our way
in direct disobedience to God's commands. > > SIN #2
> What help was offered has the Fornicator Repented? > The
attempt was about as useful as the same attempt to help in a Emergency
> room. More damage than help. > > This guy is headed
for trouble where was the help? > Comfort for Fornicators? That is
a great help! > whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > To imagine that
there are those who think it a sin as one attempts to help > those
who cry for help demonstrates just how confused we can get in our >
individual theologies. > > -------------- Original message
-------------- > From: Kevin Deegan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > "Communit y" Conscience is an EXCUSE
for lack of Personal responsibility & > holiness. >
Therefore it's overwhelming popularity! > >
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Much of the effort we see in the
posts from friends of Lance is illustrative > of the Charles
Sheldon's In His Steps. WWJD came from this book. It > pictures the
tension that is too exist between the corporate body (the > church)
and the individual. Our assemblage is designed to offer >
encouragement as we consider love and good works. To imagine that there
are > those who think it a sin as one attempts to help those who
cry for help > demonstrates just how confused we can get in our
individual theologies. > > jd > >
-------------- Original message -------------- > From: Kevin Deegan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > it is also not our place to
point out people's sins. > > Whatever happened to when you
see a brother overtaken in...? > Am azing ignorance of the Bible
ignorance of holiness > But then it does say some are willfuly
ignorant > > I hope that a seed may have been planted and
will take root eventually and > bear fruit. > This tapioca
pussyfooting will never reawaken conciousness of sin > > But
I am not naiive enough to think that I will see or be involved in that
> entire process. > > O No you have done your part
you are a sin enabler. You want to be so > inclusive while God says
to be exclusive put them apart. You have touched > the dead thing
so much now you have the leaven on you and can not see it. > But
them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among >
yourselves that wicked person. > > Lance Muir
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > ----- Original Message
----- > From: Joanna Williams > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: March 14, 2006 01:02 > Subject: RE: Fw: [TruthTalk]
Joanna William s - friend of some 10 years > speaks on believing
teens > > > While I agree completely with what you
are saying...it is also not our place > to point out people's sins.
May they see righteousness in our lives and be > drawn to a life
lived that speaks volumes..much more that words ever could. >
Francis of Assissi said well: Preach the gospel and use words when
> necessary. The earlier e-mail I sent was about a couple of
> encounters...which ended up in some substantial conversations. I
hope that > a seed may have been planted and will take root
eventually and bear fruit. > But I am not naiive enough to think
that I will see or be involved in that > entire process. I must do
my part and then move on in faith, praying and > trusting that God
will do that miraculous work of transformation in people's > lives
that He always does. I ran a youth group here in Mississauga years
> ago where I had a friend of one of our young people from the
church show up > stoned out of her mind. I knew that everyone was
watching how I would > handle that as a youth leader. It wasn't
easy but I wanted her to stay and > did not chide her for being out
of it...or not listening...or interrupting > my lesson etc.. I
continued to invite her out and she continued to > come..sometimes
in a mind-altered state. I eventually found out that she > was
dating a drug-dealer and as we talked I discovered that her mother had
> just become a Christian. She also confessed once in our group
that her > mother was her greatest role model and she admired her!
I knew that God was > working in the life of this young woman. One
day when I went over to her > place to invite her out for coffee,
she couldn't wait to ask me a ton of > questions about the Bible,
Jesus, faith etc...We talked for hours that > night. It was just
another "coffee"..and yet it wasn't. People change when > God wants
them to. She was utterly h ungry for truth and probed more and >
more. We finally went home and a few days later she not only broke up with
> her drug-dealer boyfriend, witnessed to him, started going to
church, gave h > er life to God, got baptized, attended Redeemer
University and is now a > Christian counsellor. Her cousins have
become Christian through her > witness and still contact me once in
a while to get together. Last summer, > I had the privilege of
attending her wedding to a wonderful Christian guy. > I could go on
and on about many young people like her. I have learned that >
often when I am least expecting it people will change. All of our words
and > judgements and pointing of sin in their lives is not what
draws them. God's > love and us living out that love in our lives
draws them..and they will come > to Him in their own time and way.
There are young people out of that exact > same youth group that I
am still have "coffees" with! And will continue > t o...even when
they are not spiritually hungry YET... I feel it is so > important
to be faithful to people and pray them into the kingdom...not talk
> them into it. They know what I live for and they can see it and
that's > enough. And I have th i s feeling that they will know God
in their own > time. They are just on a journey of finding how life
is empty without Him. > It is during this time that we must stay
faithful to them. Just some > thoughts... > Joanna >
> > > > From: "Lance Muir"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Joanna"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] Joanna
Williams - friend of some 10 years speaks on > believing teens
> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:44:40 -0500 > > >
> ----- Original Message ----- > From: ShieldsFamily
> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Sent: March 12, 2006
08:45 > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams - friend of some
10 years speaks on > believing teens > > >
Lance, from the small piece below I'd say Joanna has a heart of gold. I
> agree that rushing to judgment is one way to chase unbelievers
away, and is > not what Jesus did except with those who were
religious hypocrites. First > one must love and befriend, as she
obviously does. But, as I told JD, we > must also speak truth if we
are to be ambassadors of Christ, just as Jesus > did. He loved, He
befriended, but He never hesitated to call sin a sin > because He
loved those He befriended enough to want to lead them to freedom >
from sin, as that is what ultimately will destroy our relationship with
Him. > That was His entire objective in dying on the cross, of
course. Tough love > is much harder for us to give than soft love.
Tough love isn't harsh and > angry; it is just the kind of love
that pulls people towards the truth, even > when it is tempting to
gloss over the hard issues. Sin is the e lephant in > the room; do
we "love" people so much that we pretend it isn't there, or do > we
really love them enough to address the obvious? The fleshly Believer
> takes the easy path of just "loving and being loved," while the
> Spirit-filled Believer uses the truths of the Word to deliver the
captives > from sin as well as unbelief. Like being a parent, a
Christian mentor > always holds up the goal and then walks with you
towards it. Poor parents > are those who give "love, love, love,"
and never balance that with > self-discipline and hard work-the
children are ruined for life by their own > selfishness and
laziness. Jesus defined our goal as His disciples: Luke 5: > 32 I
came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. That, of
> course, is the issue I continually have with those of the
"liberal > Christian" persuasion-they have no fear of sin, for
themselves or others. > They don't realize that sin is what truly
ails us . This is a hollow gosp e > l that allows many to die in
their sins. Izzy > John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go
my way, and ye shall seek > me, and shall die in your sins: whither
I go, ye cannot come. > > > > > From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 12:05 PM > To:
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Subject: [TruthTalk] Joanna Williams
- friend of some 10 years speaks on > believing teens >
> Well, since I'm being asked for a response on this...my initial
feeling is > that we need to live in the real world having contact
with real > people...perhaps listen a little more to others and how
they live. In my > experience with people, including believers by
the way, struggle with sin is > common. By the way, people are so
much more harsh on visible sins such as > addictions to alcohol,
porno graphy, drugs etc....whereas I believe Jesus > always looked
deeper into our hearts and spoke to much that was invisible to >
many...such as self-righteousness, judgement towards others, jealousies,
> religious obsession. etc. These are way harder to weed out of our
lives > than outer behaviours that seem to upset the church so
much. I pray that we > may see these situations with the heart of
God, listening and dealing with > others on a very real level which
unfortunately is so often tucked away and > not t alked about
enough. We have many hurting people in our churches who > are
deeply addicted to many non-christian behaviours...but rather than
> judge...it may be much better to listen, to learn and to work out
the deeper > rooted hurts and issues that cause people to lose
themselves in the worlds > of pornography, alcohol, sexual
relationships etc. It is so important to be > the kind of Christian
that is listening to others with an open attitude and > no
pre-conceived judgements in mind whether they are in the church or not.
> A couple of instances pop into my mind right now...one is from
last Saturday > when I actually popped by my friend's
house...co-worker from the bank where > I work. As we sipped on
coffee, her boyfriend/spouse began to talk about > how he used to
go to church in England and considers himself a believer in > God
and Christ but would no longer go to a church anymore because of the
> questions about his relationship with my friend and the fact that
they were > living together. H e began to share his hurts about th
is situation and > then we got into one of the best discussions
I've ever had on the book of > Job. He relates a lot to Job and the
judgement his well-meaning friends > brought to him during a rough
time in his life when they should have been > listening and loving
him and not judging him. How wonderful at the end of > the book
when Job not only comes in to a deep trust with God but God also >
invites him to pray for the very friends that incessantly accused him.
> Great victory there and much to be learned from that story.
Another > situation I am reminded of is happening in my church
right now with a young > teenager who is pregnant and has come to
our church for shelter. While she > loves the Lord and clings to
His love at this hard time in her life, she is > also still
involved with her boyfriend outside of marriage right now and >
realizes her situations are not perfect. I have just chosen as a y ou th
> ministry leader to walk bes ide her, with no judgments given, and
just let > the Word of the God speak to her and let her make her
choices...letting her > know God's great love just as she is. I
feel as if as a church, if we come > out of the little religious
bubble we've allowed ourselves to be in...much > awaits us. Sure
life will not be black and white but it will be interesting > and
beautiful...as diverse as each person's dna and personality is...it is
> in these simply unique ways that God does touch and change each
life...not > in cookie-cutter ways or via textbook answers! I hope
this helps > somewhat...would love to continue the conversation!!
All the best to all of > you...Roll up your sleeves and get into
the amazing mix of life with > others...God will pop up in the most
surprising places!! My e-mail address > is
[EMAIL PROTECTED] if any of you care to contact me at a ny
> time! Thank you! > > > > >
> > > Yahoo! Mail > Use Photomail to share
photos without annoying attachments. > > >
__________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com > > > >
> Yahoo! Mail > Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail mak es
sharing a breeze. > > > > > Yahoo! Mail
> Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
> > >
__________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com > > ---------- > "Let
your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how > you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive
posts from this list, send an email to >
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a
friend > who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and > he will be subscribed.
|