----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 18, 2006 21:06
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] torrance.
Lance have you attended these meetings?
The Character of Theology by John Franke
the reformed traditon, it is important to understand that he does
not mean Charles Hodge and R. C. Sproul. He is talking about the
tradition stemming from Barth. I believe that the kind of reformed
theology Franke is doing has the potential to be a rallying point for
evangelicals of all traditions. It does not have the double predestination of
people either to heaven or hell as taught by Augustine and Calvin at it heart.
Instead it has a vision of the missional God who seeks to save all creatures.
It does not try to graft into Christian theology a pagan notion of god as
derived from philosophy. Rather...
The Character of Theology by John Franke
Given the violent history of Western civilization, it is both
unsurprising and unfortunate that militaristic and
competitive metaphors for evangelism proliferate among evangelicals
today.
His metaphor for evangelism is "dance," which is a good
way to talk about leading someone without controling them, for coming together
in relationship without coercion and for emphasizing the beauty of God rather
than the power and wrath of God.
We need to realize that postmodern people
associate Christianity with violence and top-down social control.
summarizing postmodern evangelism.
1. The Relational Factor -
count conversations not conversions.
2. The Narrative Factor -
listen to their story, share your story and share God's story, not just
proposisitons or formulas.
3. The Communal Factor - expect conversion to
normally occur in the context of authentic Christian community, not
just in the context of information.
4. The Journey Factor - see
disciple-making as a holistic process and unending journey, not just as a
conversion event.
5. The Holy Spirit Factor - believe that God is at work
"out there" in everyone . . . not just "in here" in the church.
6. The
Learning Factor - see evangelism as part of your own discipleship - not just
the other person's!
7. The Missional Factor - see evangelism as recruiting
people for God's mission on earth, not just people for heaven.
8. The
Service Factor - see evangelism as one facet of our identity as servants to
all.
Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Know was just a disciple of his Mother the REFORMED CATHOLIC
Calvin
Knox began as a Catholic priest
Knox became a major supporter and disciple of
Calvin's
Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Judy:Why indeed! Because he knew the works of
Knox thoroughly. He also knew the works of Calvin thoroughly as he was
editor of the 22 volumes of Calvin's NT commentaries. Like all of redeemed
humanity Judy, some of what persons say is worthwhile.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 18, 2006 09:00
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
torrance.
Why does he clearly quote from what he
does not hold to then Lance?
Wouldn't you call this being
doubleminded? His doctrine is "Reformed" Calvinistic - same
thing
I LITERALLY cleaned my glasses, Judy. I
took your interpretation to heart and, you are wrong vis a vis TFT's
take on 'election'. I do see how you came to the conclusion you did,
however.
Do you understand what you are reading
yourself Lance?
The statement below "Reformed doctrine of
election" is Calvinistic
John Knox who ppl say converted Scotland
was Presbyterian (Calvinistic)
Who pray tell wrote what Torrance calls the
"Scots Confession?"
Also "unprofitable servants" don't make it
... only the good and "faithful" ones
Clean your eyeglasses Lance and try
again
This is powerfully driven home by the Scots
Confession in several articles, such as the twelfth and the
fifteenth. All that we do is unworthy, so that we must fall
down before you and unfeignedly confess that we
are unprofitable servantsand it is precisely Justification by the free
Grace of Christ alone that shows us that all that we are and have done even as believers
is called in question.
You are quite correct as to your TFT
observations, JD. Judy brings to her reading of TFT a bias that
will not permit an equitable treatment of that which is there in
the text of his article.
That is the exact antithesis of the
Reformed doctrine of election, which rests salvation upon the
prior and objective decision of God in Christ
As far as I know, Torrance believed that salvation was
offered to all -- not a Calvinist opinion, my
dear. And you are much more the Calvinist that
he.
His comments below gives us a consistent explanation of the
biblical notion that man is justified apart from obedience to
the law. It beats a redactive explanation of same !!
that's for sure.
jd
--------------
Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
He also says this:
But the Scots Confession laid the axe to the root of any
such movement when it insisted that we
have to spoil ourselves even of our own regeneration and
sanctification as well as justification. What is "axed"
so radically was the notion of "co-redemption" which in our
day has again become so rampant, not only in the Roman Church,
but in Liberal and Evangelical Protestantism, e.g., the emphasis upon
existential decision as the
means whereby we "make real" for ourselves the kerygma
[proclamation] of the New Testament, which means that in the
last resort our salvation depends upon our own personal or
existential decision. That is the exact antithesis of the Reformed
doctrine of election, which rests salvation upon the prior and
objective decision of God in Christ. It is Justification by Grace alone that
guards the Gospel from corruption by "Evangel icals,"
"Liberals," and Romans alike.
So Torrance is
also a Calvinist at heart who is resting in Calvin's "doctrine
of election" in spite of all the big theological words and
high talk...
In the recent article posted by Lance from Torrance,
the theologican says this:
"Nowhere is this more apparent than in the case of the
popular minister where everything centers on him, and the
whole life of the congregation is built round him.
What is that but Protestant sacerdotalism, sacerdotalism
which involves the displacement of the Humanity of Christ by
the humanity of the minister, and the obscuring of the
Person of Christ by the personality of the minister?"
amen. We have here a well worded warning to
the mega church industry that the Christ, His
very person, just might be lost to a pattern of worship that
denies opportunities for authenticity and spontaneous
participation by the attendee. It can be argued that
such 'worship services" fly in the face of such
passages as Eph 5:18,19. There is a bonding and
a closeness that takes place in a small group that is not
possible in the mega assemblies.
jd
Yahoo! Mail
Use
Photomail to share photos without annoying
attachments.
Yahoo! Mail
Use
Photomail to share photos without annoying
attachments.