Re: [TruthTalk] torrance.

Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:40:27 -0800

Sorry position is filled.
 
As far as that crowd Reformed (RC) to the core.
They are right all other clods have it wrong.

Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Of course! I'm hoping to be appointed King.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 19, 2006 08:15
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] torrance.

This stuff looks like it is right down your alley and in your nieghborhood!
Are you a 21st Century Friend?
Do you also believe in the Emergant Church?
Are these guys nothing more than there "Politically" active RC Fathers?
Are they trying to bring in the Kingdom and establish their own brand of Theocracy?

Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No. Thanks for the information.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 18, 2006 21:06
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] torrance.

Lance have you attended these meetings?
 
The Character of Theology by John Franke
the reformed traditon, it is important to understand that he does not mean Charles Hodge and R. C. Sproul. He is talking about the tradition stemming from Barth. I believe that the kind of reformed theology Franke is doing has the potential to be a rallying point for evangelicals of all traditions. It does not have the double predestination of people either to heaven or hell as taught by Augustine and Calvin at it heart. Instead it has a vision of the missional God who seeks to save all creatures. It does not try to graft into Christian theology a pagan notion of god as derived from philosophy. Rather...
 
The Character of Theology by John Franke
Given the violent history of Western civilization, it is both unsurprising and unfortunate that militaristic and competitive metaphors for evangelism proliferate among evangelicals today.
His metaphor for evangelism is "dance," which is a good way to talk about leading someone without controling them, for coming together in relationship without coercion and for emphasizing the beauty of God rather than the power and wrath of God.
We need to realize that postmodern people associate Christianity with violence and top-down social control.

summarizing postmodern evangelism.

1. The Relational Factor - count conversations not conversions.
2. The Narrative Factor - listen to their story, share your story and share God's story, not just proposisitons or formulas.
3. The Communal Factor - expect conversion to normally occur in the context of authentic Christian community, not just in the context of information.
4. The Journey Factor - see disciple-making as a holistic process and unending journey, not just as a conversion event.
5. The Holy Spirit Factor - believe that God is at work "out there" in everyone . . . not just "in here" in the church.
6. The Learning Factor - see evangelism as part of your own discipleship - not just the other person's!
7. The Missional Factor - see evangelism as recruiting people for God's mission on earth, not just people for heaven.
8. The Service Factor - see evangelism as one facet of our identity as servants to all.

Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Know was just a disciple of his Mother the REFORMED CATHOLIC Calvin
Knox began as a Catholic priest
Knox became a major supporter and disciple of Calvin's

Lance Muir <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Judy:Why indeed! Because he knew the works of Knox thoroughly. He also knew the works of Calvin thoroughly as he was editor of the 22 volumes of Calvin's NT commentaries. Like all of redeemed humanity Judy, some of what persons say is worthwhile.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 18, 2006 09:00
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] torrance.

Why does he clearly quote from what he does not hold to then Lance?
Wouldn't you call this being doubleminded?  His doctrine is "Reformed" Calvinistic - same thing
 
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:56:21 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
I LITERALLY cleaned my glasses, Judy. I took your interpretation to heart and, you are wrong vis a vis TFT's take on 'election'. I do see how you came to the conclusion you did, however.
 
Do you understand what you are reading yourself Lance?
The statement below "Reformed doctrine of election" is Calvinistic
John Knox who ppl say converted Scotland was Presbyterian (Calvinistic)
Who pray tell wrote what Torrance calls the "Scots Confession?"
Also "unprofitable servants" don't make it .... only the good and "faithful" ones
Clean your eyeglasses Lance and try again
This is powerfully driven home by the Scots Confession in several articles, such as the twelfth and the fifteenth. All that we do is unworthy, so that we must fall down before you and unfeignedly confess that we are unprofitable servants—and it is precisely Justification by the free Grace of Christ alone that shows us that all that we are and have done even as believers is called in question.
 
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:07:30 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
You are quite correct as to your TFT observations, JD. Judy brings to her reading of TFT a bias that will not permit an equitable treatment of that which is there in the text of his article.
 
That is the exact antithesis of the Reformed doctrine of election, which rests salvation upon the prior and objective decision of God in Christ
 
As far as I know, Torrance believed that salvation was offered to all  --  not a Calvinist opinion, my dear.   And you are much more the Calvinist that he.
 
His comments below gives us a consistent explanation of the biblical notion that man is justified apart from obedience to the law.  It beats a redactive explanation of same  !! that's for sure. 
 
jd
 
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
He also says this:
But the Scots Confession laid the axe to the root of any such movement when it insisted that we have to spoil ourselves even of our own regeneration and sanctification as well as justification. What is "axed" so radically was the notion of "co-redemption" which in our day has again become so rampant, not only in the Roman Church, but in Liberal and Evangelical Protestantism, e.g., the emphasis upon existential decision as the means whereby we "make real" for ourselves the kerygma [proclamation] of the New Testament, which means that in the last resort our salvation depends upon our own personal or existential decision. That is the exact antithesis of the Reformed doctrine of election, which rests salvation upon the prior and objective decision of God in Christ. It is Justification by Grace alone that guards the Gospel from corruption by "Evangel icals," "Liberals," and Romans alike.
So Torrance is also a Calvinist at heart who is resting in Calvin's "doctrine of election" in spite of all the big theological words and high talk...
On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 04:43:32 +0000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In the recent article posted by Lance from Torrance, the theologican says this:
"Nowhere is this more apparent than in the case of the popular minister where everything centers on him, and the whole life of the congregation is built round him.  What is that but Protestant sacerdotalism, sacerdotalism which involves the displacement of the Humanity of Christ by the humanity of the minister, and the obscuring of the Person of Christ by the personality of the minister?"
amen.   We have here a well worded warning to the mega church industry that  the Christ,  His very person, just might be lost to a pattern of worship that denies opportunities for authenticity  and spontaneous participation by the attendee.  It can be argued that such 'worship services"  fly in the face of such passages as Eph 5:18,19.   There is a bonding and a closeness that takes place in a small group that is not possible in the mega assemblies. 
 
jd
 
 
 

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