Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Tell me the truth. Wouldn't it piss you off to have somebody lay this load of bullshit on you?
[...]
is probably about as useful as tits on a nun. But it makes for a good buzzword to add to your feature list...
[...]
I will stop talking to you now.
I earlier apologized for calling you a clown. However, darnit, you are making me laugh again. If you want to stop talking to somebody, just stop talking to them. Don't say "I'm going to stop talking to you" and then launch into some pathetic, self-righteous, phony speech.
I really have enough.
It doesn't seem to be possible to discuss technical facts without getting either dragged into some long and winded metaphorical discussion behind which you always see a cabal. You style of putting personal accusations and dismissing every technical explanation as "blatant",
I specifically pointed out that your "technical explanation" for the removal of FM and WM support did not withstand the proverbial laugh test. Obviously, nobody was going to use FM support that only supported a 3-year-old version. For you to say "there's no end-user demand and everybody is happy with Velocity" in that context was really quite dishonest.
Everybody knows that the whole situation was completely rigged from the get-go. FM and WM were never *really* presented as options. And we're not debating that, right? You openly admit that FM was never *really* supported on a par with Vel. (Something that everybody knows...)
Given that, your previous argument that FM support was axed because there was no end-user demand was clearly not made in completely good faith. Obviously, it was set up as a rigged, deceptive half-truth.
> "I always knew that" and "I'm not interested in that" while
simply not listening to facts, is to me both confusing and revolting.
Well, this is pathetic posturing where you are attacking me in order to cover up your own mendacity.
I would like you to answer the question I posed: Would it not piss you off to have somebody lay this load of bullshit on you?
If you want to discuss technical things, come over to -dev. If you want to help us integrating FM in a clean and turbine-like way, come over to -dev. If you don't want to help us, please stay away.
Well, I already told you that you could not expect any help with FM integration. Now, I have helped other framework authors with FM integration. I wrote the first pass on the JPublish integration. However, there was no previous history of FM being supported and then support being removed for murky, non-technical reasons. Given that, it is ridiculous to think that I will help you very much. My position is as follows:
"You removed it. If you want it, you put it back in."
You interpret this as hostile and arrogant, I suppose, but I don't think so. I think that the logic and structure of the current situation is such that anybody would react that way.
If you want to do ASF bashing, Velocity bashing or just continue to actively drive people that once were neutral to FM away, please go somewhere else.
But sorry, I honestly tried to describe you the situation as it was when I came to Turbine 18 months ago. I don't have "3+ years of experience with Turbine" as you claim.
Huh? I never claimed that. What are you talking about?
In any case, there is something odd about this. If the decision to deprecate and then remove support for alternative template solutions and also to tightly couple Turbine internals with Velocity API's was not your decision, then you don't have to defend it or explain it at all.
In fact, if it was a bad decision, then just correct it. Or don't correct it. But it has pretty much nothing to do with me.
To me, you come over as a mischief-maker which tries to promote his
own project/product not by talking about its merits but by putting
other projects down.
In the case of Velocity, I have simply told the truth. No development has taken place for over a year. The Velocity "fans" have continued throughout this period to have conversations in which they discuss the project as if ongoing development was still going on. "Could you submit a patch for that? Maybe one of the committers will implement that for you..."
It has seemed to me like there was a tacit understanding that they were to continue talking about it as if it was being actively developed. Finally, I simply looked at the commit records and saw that basically nobody had committed any code for a year!
That pissed me off! I consider that whole thing fraudulent!
So, in recent posts, I simply pointed out that no active development was taking place. This is a key fact that would be worth knowing for anybody considering making an investment in that technology.
I was telling the truth. People who objected to my posts were trying to cover up the truth. There was an intent to mislead. Given that, I rest easy and sleep at night.
This isn't exactly the style and spirit that I consider helpful for developing open source. I have better things to do than getting into a pissing match with you.
From my dialogues with you, and casual observation of your behavior, I find that honesty is not one of your strong traits.
I mean, for starters, this comment that "we removed FM support because nobody was using it" was true strictly speaking, but it was based such a contrived, rigged argument, that it is really mendacious.
But, even your post that initiated this thread was deliberately phrased so as to get the response (or lack thereof) that you wanted. You asked if anybody was interested in FreeMarker.
Of course, most people here probably don't even know about FM, so you were unlikely to get much of a response either way. I posted a response because I felt obliged to rephrase the question as: "Is anybody interested in decimal number support"? or it could equally be: "Is anybody interested in a template engine that implements macros correctly?" (You know that all macro parameters in Vel are passed as strings that are reparsed and evaluated each time they occur in the macro??? Heinous.)
And this latest gem, that it took you "ages" to realize that FM and WM were not supported on an equal footing in Turbine. C'mon, it took you ages to realize that? I could give you the benefit of the doubt on that, I suppose, but c'mon... *nobody* is that bloody stupid!
I mean, why all the phony posturing? Why this attempt to bullshit people? It's like a pathology, a compulsion or something....
If you have any FM-specific issues, we have mailing lists and we'll be quite helpful if you ask any questions there.
After your posing here and on velocity-user I have serious trouble to
believe that.
<sigh> You can believe what you find convenient to believe, and you can even repeat things on that basis if you want. However, these are open communities and there is a record of everything that goes on.
Look at the archives. For example, look at the Velocity-user archives and try to find the last time anybody requested a feature and it was implemented. Carry out the same investigation looking at the FM archives. See when the last time anybody requested a feature was and it was implemented.
You will very quickly see which community is more helpful and responsive.
But if the need crops out, I might try this out. ATM I'm
pretty sure that with your obnoxious and demanding style you drove
most readers of this mailing list as far away from FM as possible.
Henning, that you think that everybody makes technical decisions on completely non-technical grounds says more about you than it does about anything else. In terms of my abrasiveness driving people away from FM, well, look at the FM-devel archives.
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=7170
I took over the project in early 2002. You will note that, before that, there were rarely more than a few dozen posts in a month. Now, there are hundreds of messages a month. This does not bear out the idea that my "style" drives people away.
As regards my "demanding style", well, yes, in certain regards, I am demanding. And I sense that you are not used to people who are demanding in this way.
You see, I have a very low tolerance for dishonesty. If you lie or otherwise dissemble, I will simply point it out. I don't even think it's a moralistic thing really. It's pragmatic also. You just cannot make any progress in open source, or in technical fields generally, without honesty.
You can't bullshit the compiler when it says your source file is invalid. When I see significant levels of dishonesty in a community, such as in the Velocity camp, I immediately assume that very little quality technical work can be taking place.
I think that if you want to move things forward, you have to foment more honesty in your community. It does seem to be lacking.
At least you achieved this with me. You can be proud on this and laugh long and hard now.
The truth is that I feel sorry for you. You were caught in a lie, Henning, and you're just making matters worse. Anybody can see that.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ FreeMarker-Velocity comparison page, http://freemarker.org/fmVsVel.html FreeMarker 2.3pre4 is out!
Regards Henning
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