hi all,
Hi,
Am 12.10.2012 18:11, schrieb Thomas Skierlo:
What I mean is the big
picture of usability for one (still - or formerly important) target user
group, the system integrators, who finally helped spreading the word. Do
they still get what they need - in a way which is both understandable as
well as sophisticated? Are all external extensions which are mission
critical for a real ECMS brought to the next level or are at least
substituted by solid replacements? No? Than stop the train or otherwise
damage may occurr to the main product.
IMO integrators still get what they need. But of course I am a bit more
than integrator so maybe I overlook some things ... so what do you think
integrators need?
Well, since we are talking about CMS, integrators need a solid base to
present content, including the markup needed. The latter one is
dependent on "Zeitgeist", the spirit of the times. In ancient times,
when nobody knew about accordions or grids, it was perfectly ok if a CMS
did not offer a way get them. Today things are different. Everybody
knows about accorions, tabbed content and the grid, and many want to use
this gimmicks. This is no problem today, since people still can use TV.
My posts to this thread are not about TV, but about the technologies
promoted heavily since 2009. Try it yourself and google for "TYPO3 and
gridelements" or "TYPO3 custom content elements fluid extbase" and you
will come in touch with articles about the new "TV killers". Current
Gridelements has nothing to do with extbase or fluid. It uses pure old
Typoscript. Its very promising for static markup, but try to build
something more complex and you'll notice, that you either get a db
access monster or a clear miss. I am still struggling with the
extension, but I can't find a way to take decisions for one content
element upon another one. Fluidtemplate looks promising too, since I can
use Fluid without the extbase stuff. Tried for two days to joing
Gridelements and Fluidtemplate, which should be possible, since both
only use Typoscript - but in the end I ended up with one template per
column, which offers no improvement at all.
In a 2012 ECMS you shouldn't be urged to install a long dependency chain
of extensions just to get content in a more sophisticated way. Again, I
know that I can get everything I need today, by means of TV or a mixture
of TV and Fluidtemplate. I'm perfectly sure that there is another way to
get the same, or even better results in Neos. I strongly believe that TV
will even work under 6.0, since the devs are doing an excellent job for
years. BUT: Am I acting responsible to stick to the old fashioned way of
doing things? Its a long time since the release of 4.5, and many things
of minor and major importance have been changed on the way to 6.0. But
still no official, easy or understandable way to handle multiple content
within one CE. An ECMS definitely doesn't need a real-estate selling
tool as a base component, but when it comes to "C" part of ECMS, there
should be no limits. The fact, that this involves templates or
templating paradigms, is of rather minor importance - as long as this
feature isn't missing. You already agreed that Grid/FCE etc. are a kind
of missing feature. My position is that this functionallity must be
available either by core or a system extension AND that it should use
technologies promoted since 2009, hopefully with certain similarities to
future products like Neos. I like the fact that indexedsearch is
included in the core package, but when it comes to a point of decision
taking I'd rather prefer modern content handling over searching. I often
heard the phrase "TYPO3 core team will never take sides when it comes to
templating". I can understand that position. On the other hand, why are
they taking sides when it comes to searching? We have an "S" inside
ECMS, but it doesn't mean "search", and we have a "C", which means
content. To answer your question: Integrators need a modern way to
handle content - whatever that may mean. If it is not available out of
the box, but hidden inside some core treasures, people need guidance to
unvail and use it to get what they need. This may or may not be only an
integrator's view - from my feelings I believe basic functionality like
multiple-content would ease life for developers too. Without having a
solutions for this problem thousands of working hours are burned without
any chance to being used for "giving back to the comminity" activites.
That doesn't matter. As long as community extensions are needed for
basic scaffolding within the CMS, they are of same importance as the
core itself - at least in the real world. To name a few: Url-Management,
News system, powerful templating. Ease of templating alway was one motor
of success for TYPO3, and for many integrators this part is getting
harder and harder with any new (sub)release.
What did get harder? And I believe that this is still something a
community can take care of. But yes - again - a FCE thing in the core
would be awesome and great.
Speaking for myself: having a news extension in core would not be fun at
all, as this has also several drawbacks like the release cycle. And just
because people are "only" integrators it doesn't mean they can't help
building or improving such extensions. There are many many things to do
and not just developing like:
- improving manuals: integrators are the ones who integrate the
extension, if something is missing in the manual, just add it there and
it will help every person.
- financing: yes of course this helps a lot and nobody says that 1
integrator needs to sponsor everything. take a look at gridelements 2.0
- or organize yourself in a mailinglist, forum wherever.
I perfectly know what you mean, since I followed the development of
"news" a couple of month ago. "News" was the first community extension
from the extbase shelf I ever used in production and "News" is a perfect
example for my core message about mission critical components: Lets put
it in drastic words: A ECMS without a news management and presentational
system available is worthless. Does everybody need News? No. Do most of
the people using TYPO3 need News? Probably. OK, no room for a system
extension called "news", because there might be installations without
it. No problem at all, since a powerful community extension is
available, which is using latest technologies. Without "News" I would
expect the core people to get sleepless and nervous, at least if they
are able to get the whole picture of the importance of a missing feature
for everything and everyone involved, including their own existance as
(maybe) payed members and developers. Don't know the internals.
Now: Substitute "News" by "Clear and modern general templating - abr.:
Modern Templating" and ask the very same questions. You'll get my
position if your ansers would match mine:
A ECMS without "Modern Templating" is worthless. Does everybody needs
Modern Templating? No. Do most of the people using TYPO3 need Modern
Templating? Without any doubt. OK, no room for a system extension called
"Modern Templating", because there might be installations without it.
Big problem, because currently no community extension fully covers the
need. Not because of a lack of technology, which is available for nearly
4 years. Red lights on - blinking!
Hope I clearified my point.
Now people might call that "complaining" - I'd rather use the phrase
"warning". I want to prepare myself for the future, and I'm stuck, and
worried. And maybe I'm not alone.
Enjoy the weekend,
Thomas
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