Grant, I was an early adopter of Appcelerator. I did a few user group presentations on it. Over time, it got less stable with each new release, iOS 5 was pretty bad. Is that still true generally, or are you being careful to avoid certain parts? I did a few prototypes with it, but could never get approval on the real thing. The Android performance was noticeably off, and iOS was only so-so. What really killed it was always it was short on the feature list, the lack of support on our requirements.
I never considered Appcelerator for games, because it's not really built for that. Something like Cocos2D is, but now with the release of SpriteKit, Cocos2D seems ancient and confusing. Technically, a hybrid game engine like Unity or Unreal seems very appropriate for games. I played with Unity, but didn't have the time it takes to do it for real. I have to agree with Sean on Starling for games. I'm curious why you you would not consider hybrid for games? Over time, I've gotten to the point where I'm spoiled by the full native support. It's a blast, strong community, strong vendor support. We don't ask ourselves "if" we can do something, but "do we want to spend the time" to do it. I can produce an app in about the same amount of time as a hybrid, with a ton more functionality. Android is x3 time versus iOS though (cough, fragmentation, cough). No one complains about crashing, because the stability is there. The performance is there. Native is extremely rewarding, and is a solid advantage on your resume. -- Cole Quoting Grant Shipley <[email protected]>: > I actually disagree with some of the things said here. I think a hybrid > approach does make sense given the correct use case. Should you develop a > game using a hybrid framework? Absolutely not. However, for certain > productivity apps it can make a lot of sense. > > I have the most experience with Appcelerator Titanium and am recognized as > a titan (http://www.appcelerator.com/blog/2011/01/titanium-titan-program/) > Using a framework such as Titanium, which doesn't run in a web view btw, > is just like any other language. You have to spend a lot of time > understanding best practices for usage of the platform. Sure, there are a > lot of crappy hybrid apps out there just as there are with any language, > but there are some good ones as well. > > -- > gs > > > On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:25 AM, thin <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I'm totally on board with Timothy here. Sean and Cole, thanks for the >> conversation and by all means keep it going, I've reading every word! >> >> Everyone else, you're strangely quiet. Is that to say that there are no >> opinions/experiences worth sharing in the "hybrid" (or other) spaces? I'm >> really interested in actual experiences with some of the other tools >> available as well. Conveniences and hiccups (or support holes) would be >> very interesting to hear about. >> >> Thanks again! >> >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Timothy Humphrey < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Hey guys. >> > >> > FYI: I'm really enjoying this thread. Seeing each of your positions and >> > watching each of you support your arguments. There are so many tools out >> > there, that it's great to hear the nuts-and-bolts from the guys in the >> > trenches on some of these things. >> > >> > Thanks. >> > -Timothy >> > >> > On Feb 11, 2014, at 11:10 AM, Sean Thayne wrote: >> > >> > > You really should check out Apache Flex. I completely disagree that >> > Apache >> > > is a bad place for Flex. They have been killing it. The open source >> > > community is thriving for flex. Downloads are going up significantly >> ever >> > > month. And they have achieved top level project status for a year now. >> > > Fastest project to achieve it. >> > > >> > > Second, there are great cross platform systems that use native UI. So >> > your >> > > most likely going to need to use a custom component set regardless. >> > > Startling uses a UI framework called feathers. There are many 2D flat >> > > business applications built on starling/feathers/air. The approach is >> > very >> > > similar to opengl. Only easier in my opinion. >> > > >> > > Another thing, Air supports native extensions. Allowing you to write in >> > > objective c for ios and java. So any native functionality of UI >> elements >> > > you want to use. You can. >> > > >> > > Also air lets you control the chrome of the app. If you want it full >> > > screen, you can, but it not forced to run in full screen. That's just a >> > > setting. >> > > On Feb 11, 2014 9:49 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Sean, using the Adobe game engine or Starling for a game is a >> different >> > >> animal. That's doing hardware acceleration, which definitely spanks >> > >> Javascript. Yes, Adobe is still very serious about the gaming SDK, and >> > they >> > >> should. It's very good, you have a good point. If you're doing a game, >> > that >> > >> opens up a lot of other choices as well as AIR. Game engines take over >> > the >> > >> entire screen render. I was referring to non-gaming apps, where >> current >> > OS >> > >> component and system feature support are important. >> > >> >> > >> The watchESPN app is a perfect example of a hybrid's hot and cold >> > history >> > >> at best. Let me quote a 4 star review, "App suddenly crashing is not >> > >> happening." And a 3 star review, "It still crashes fairly often and >> > there >> > >> are some UI glitches...My biggest question is why it's currently >> taking >> > up >> > >> almost 250MB of data." That's just in the latest 6 reviews on iOS. >> > Google >> > >> Play has a lot of the same issues, where each phone is either working >> > >> great, or not working at all. I don't think ESPN has their mobile act >> > >> together at all. They need to start over. My opinion. >> > >> >> > >> I'm not as excited about where Flex is with Apache. When Adobe was >> > >> throwing serious money at development, yes. Considering Adobe's >> > competition >> > >> in the hybrid platform realm, the CES award was a given, at least for >> > me. >> > >> Currently, Adobe AIR is still the best, easily. Adobe pumped so much >> > >> development into it, I don't see anyone coming close to that >> engineering >> > >> effort for a few years at least. Last I checked, FlexJS was two guys >> > >> part-time, but that was two years ago. All good people for sure. I >> just >> > >> can't say it's the future of mobile. >> > >> >> > >> I'm a dedicated Adobe fan. I love what they are doing in HTML/CSS. I >> use >> > >> Adobe tools every day for web dev and app graphics. Just not as my app >> > >> tool. Unless you are gaming, which uses very little of the actual OS, >> > you >> > >> are very limited. You're going to spend a lot of time explaining what >> > you >> > >> can't do, or can't do reliably. Those original mixed sentiments are >> > >> justified and correct. I can't recommend cross platform for non-gaming >> > apps. >> > >> >> > >> -- Cole >> > >> >> > >> Quoting Sean Thayne <[email protected]>: >> > >> >> > >> Cole, your correct that adobe stopped supporting "flash player" on >> > mobile. >> > >>> But Air and Flash Player are very different. Adobe IS still >> supporting >> > >>> Air. >> > >>> They are also still adding awesome new features. That's one of the >> > reasons >> > >>> it won the CES award for best mobile framework this year. Adobe has >> > >>> consistently held their stance that mobile AIR is the best cross >> > platform >> > >>> mobile system to date, and they work hard to continue to support the >> > >>> latest. They are already one of the first frameworks to support >> apples >> > new >> > >>> x code 5+ mandate. >> > >>> >> > >>> Another thing, many awesome companies use Air. ESPN, Angry Birds, >> IHC, >> > >>> etc, >> > >>> etc. They all use the starling framework which has comparable speeds >> to >> > >>> native. The kind of performance that JavaScript apps will never beat. >> > >>> >> > >>> Lastly the key framework "Adobe Flex" is now owned and maintained by >> > >>> Apache. The key adobe inventor Alex Harui is still fulltime on flex. >> As >> > >>> well as a bunch of awesome apache guys. It's very well supported at >> > this >> > >>> point. Their dev/user mailing lists are extremely active (100 emails >> > each >> > >>> per day). They are also hard at work on a new system called FlexJS >> that >> > >>> will allow you to use common libraries between your Air and >> > >>> HTML/JAVASCRIPT/CSS apps. They are using Google closures on this end. >> > >>> Which >> > >>> is a very awesome choice. >> > >>> On Feb 11, 2014 1:15 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> Hi Everyone, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I'm going to be a bit blunt, but I want to share my experience doing >> > apps >> > >>>> full-time for 7 years. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> As an Adobe User Group Manager, and now an Adobe Community >> > Professional, >> > >>>> I >> > >>>> think I can speak on what Adobe is doing and recommending. Flash >> > >>>> Professional is focused on producing HTML 5 content, especially >> > Canvas. >> > >>>> Which I think is smart. Flash is no longer focused on using AIR to >> > >>>> produce >> > >>>> native/hybrid apps since Adobe stopped supporting a Flash mobile >> > plugin. >> > >>>> I >> > >>>> think it is wise to take the hint. Speaking for myself, I would not >> > >>>> recommend AIR development for mobile. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> PhoneGap is a product that has Adobe?s focus. This is a previously >> > open >> > >>>> source project, and it is a hybrid, using HTML, CSS, and Javascript. >> > >>>> Speaking for myself, it?s a crash-fest. I would not consider ANY >> > hybrid >> > >>>> solution. I?ve tried all the multi-platform frameworks and tools, >> from >> > >>>> Appcelerator to Embarcadero. I?m done. No more. Here?s why you >> should >> > go >> > >>>> native, and native only for apps: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> 1) Wrapped-Browser rendering leaks memory. It will blow up on you. >> > It?s a >> > >>>> fact. It?s not up for dispute. Just ask the likes of Facebook and >> > >>>> LinkedIn, >> > >>>> the loudest supporters of this approach. Everyone that matters has >> > >>>> abandoned it, code in the dumpster. They started over. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> 2) The biggest myth in the mobile world, by far, is that hybrids >> save >> > >>>> time >> > >>>> and money. They don?t! Hybrids fail, and they fail huge. Hybrid >> > >>>> development >> > >>>> is becoming synonymous with developers that just take your money and >> > >>>> leave >> > >>>> you with a bad app. Ouch. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> 3) OS support by these tools is late, incomplete, or completely >> > missing. >> > >>>> Xaramin is a great example of a tool that has all these checkmarks >> on >> > >>>> their >> > >>>> site of what they support, like video. But when you read the fine >> > print, >> > >>>> 95% of video properties and methods are NOT supported. If you are >> > lucky, >> > >>>> you?ll get a general subset of cross-platform-common-denominator >> > >>>> support, >> > >>>> a year late. You aren?t getting everything in Android and iOS, not >> > even >> > >>>> close. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> 4) Quality matters. Bad apps get deleted. This is exponentially true >> > for >> > >>>> iOS users. Like it or not, the native competition is plentiful and >> > >>>> fierce. >> > >>>> Do not bring a butter knife to a gunfight. Hybrid apps are >> notoriously >> > >>>> slow, and leave a very large footprint. Even if your app is >> marginal, >> > >>>> once >> > >>>> the user is looking for bloated apps to delete to make more room, >> your >> > >>>> hybrid app is sitting at the top of the size list. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> The reality of the hybrid cross-platform solution is you?ll be >> > unstable, >> > >>>> low-featured, old, slow, and bloated. There?s no free lunch. There?s >> > no >> > >>>> shortcut. Don?t pretend you can play with the big dogs in an app >> > store. >> > >>>> It?s mobile career suicide. If you want to develop apps, do it >> right, >> > go >> > >>>> native. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> If you want to do mobile, but you want to stick to HTML, there?s >> good >> > >>>> news. Jump hard into responsive and the frameworks, and make a great >> > >>>> mobile-enabled site. Adobe has awesome tools for that also. >> > Angular.js is >> > >>>> cool. There?s very good money in that work right now. That?s >> > definitely >> > >>>> doing it right. Very hipster. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> -- Cole Joplin >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Quoting thin <[email protected]>: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Thanks Sean, I thought of you with this question for sure (and >> assumed >> > >>>> you >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> would tout Air) :) In fact, I pitched Air to some people around >> here >> > and >> > >>>>> got some mixed sentiments with some of the complaints being >> bad/slow >> > >>>>> updates/support and claims that Air is being abandoned by Adobe >> > (which I >> > >>>>> have not way of verifying). >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> What about PhoneGap+Steroids (by AppGyver)? Anyone out there have >> any >> > >>>>> pro/con experiences to share there? >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Sean Thayne <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> AIR, haha, but really, it won the 2013 mobile framework of the year >> > at >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>> CES >> > >>>>>> last month. >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> ~Sean >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> <http://www.skyseek.com> >> > >>>>>> class *Sean_Thayne* >> > >>>>>> extends Developer { >> > >>>>>> public $skype = "sthayne23"; >> > >>>>>> public $gTalk = "[email protected]"; >> > >>>>>> public $url = "www.skyseek.com"; >> > >>>>>> } >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 1:27 PM, thin <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> Heya all, >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> This may be a little off topic, but I wanted to ask about >> peoples' >> > >>>>>>> experiences with multi-platform mobile development and which >> tools >> > to >> > >>>>>>> praise or avoid, pros/cons of various tools, etc. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Everyone's combined experiences would be really awesome to hear >> > about, >> > >>>>>>> so >> > >>>>>>> feel free to speak up about Titanium, PhoneGap, AppGyver, Sencha, >> > >>>>>>> Rhomobile >> > >>>>>>> and beyond! >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> What I'm trying to do is to make a good pros/cons list of the >> most >> > >>>>>>> common >> > >>>>>>> and/or current and/or robust offerings out there. >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> Thanks tons! >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> UPHPU mailing list >> > >>>>>>> [email protected] >> > >>>>>>> http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu >> > >>>>>>> IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>> >> > >>>>>> >> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> UPHPU mailing list >> > >>>>> [email protected] >> > >>>>> http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu >> > >>>>> IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > >> > > UPHPU mailing list >> > > [email protected] >> > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu >> > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > UPHPU mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu >> > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> UPHPU mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu >> IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > > UPHPU mailing list > [email protected] > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > _______________________________________________ UPHPU mailing list [email protected] http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
