In my opinion, it would be very valuable to have projects that progress something along these lines:
write a simple php page that creates a mostly static html page with url param inputs to set variables. html form that collects and redisplays data to the page[ or file] single mysql table database to collect the data from the form. a second page to show previous records multiple table mysql setup with additional form selects and whatnot to highlight joining/etc and demonstrate proper table structures create classes to represent and validate the data in the forms. use PDO to fetch the data into an object and write from the object add ajax pre validation Use a common php framework to do the above recreate the current project with a js framework, tempting framework, and php framework the project at this point would still be fairly simple, so the last several weeks could be for the students to make something interesting using frameworks of their choosing. that's what i wish my web dev class would have done... On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 10:16 AM, Justin Giboney <[email protected]> wrote: > This has been a very interesting conversation. It is also very relevant to > me as I am currently teaching a CS web programming course at the University > of Arizona. I would be interested in having the group build upon Mac's > comment "I've found that since so few universities really have a robust > course offering in web development, many of the skills I care about most > aren't even on the curriculum." > > When you were looking for an entry level web programmer who had taken 1 web > programming course (intern level maybe), what skills would you want that > person to possess? What would you want taught in a basic web programming > course? If they could come to you with something in their portfolio from > the course, what would it be? > > To try to provide a quality education, I have been giving practical quizzes > and I am about to give a practical midterm ( > http://www.justingiboney.com/cs337). In these quizzes (15-20 minutes), I > actually make the students program. There are no multiple guess questions. > Any feedback or thoughts on these quizzes would be interesting as well. > > The students will be starting the PHP assignment soon that I haven't > finished yet, so if you have any things that must learn (in 2.5 weeks), let > me know what that would be. > > Thanks, > > Justin Giboney > > > Justin Scott Giboney > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Mac Newbold <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I would second a lot of what Aleksei said, too. Some kind of test, > whether > > a short project, or some interview questions where they write code, or at > > least some kind of code review of some work in their portfolio, is worth > > its weight in gold. I've been surprised at people who manage to get 10+ > > years of experience in the field, and then you ask them some relatively > > easy things and they fail miserably. On the other hand, I've also seen > > people with no formal training at all who do great in the interview, and > > even better on the job. > > > > I think you're absolutely right about employers who have a hard and fast > > rule about requiring degrees. Especially in our field, a degree does not > > have a really strong correlation to ability to succeed in any particular > > job. I've found that since so few universities really have a robust > course > > offering in web development, many of the skills I care about most aren't > > even on the curriculum. That said, often a CS (or related) degree, at > least > > from the right schools, can really broaden a candiates perspective and > help > > them know how their piece of the puzzle will interact with all the other > > components around it, which can definitely be a valuable asset. But the > > proof is in the pudding, as Aleksei explains so well. > > > > Thanks, > > Mac > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Alexandros Nipirakis > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > I have no idea how this factors in, but I will give my 0.02 in case it > is > > > at all useful to anyone. (I am new to the community, and this is > > probably > > > a good place to introduce myself at least a little while adding my > voice > > to > > > the conversation ;) ). > > > > > > I am an IT Manager for a local company and have been in IT for about 15 > > > years (ever since high school, where i actually worked in the IT > > department > > > of my school system as an assistant to our net admin for pay). I have > > > worked for my current company for about ten years, and moved up from a > > > simple programmer to my current position. > > > > > > I do not (currently) have a BS degree. > > > > > > My only education is with ITT Tech where I got my Associates Degree in > > > "Applied Science with an Emphasis on Computer Network Systems" in 2004. > > > > > > With that said, I used to mentor a FRC team (US FIRST team 1557 in > > Eustis, > > > FL), and any student that even mentioned that they were thinking about > > > going to ITT, I would tell them to avoid it at all costs. Yes, there > > are > > > a FEW people like me that had some experience before going, safely got > > > through learning almost nothing new, getting a piece of paper and > making > > > somewhat good money afterwards. Then, there are the vast majority (I > > would > > > call it 70%, but I am probably underestimating the problem) that leave > > with > > > no experience or knowledge and a $50,000 school debt and working at a > 12 > > > dollar an hour help desk position with little (if any) hope for growth. > > > > > > Many of the people I went to school with couldn't manage a network for > > > anything, and still couldn't after the two years we were in school. I > > > haven't kept up with any of them (this was two moves ago back in > Detroit, > > > and I graduated in 2004 at that), but I would guess most of them are > not > > > doing anything having to do with their degree. Or, they are part of > that > > > lie of a statistic that ITT will throw out there for someone working > as a > > > cashier at Best Buy but calling it in the "IT industry." > > > > > > I cringe when I see one of their commercials on TV, and thankfully I > have > > > never been asked to be on one of them (though I did speak at our > > > commencement for the IT program). > > > > > > I have never gone to Phoenix or Devry, but I used to work with a group > of > > > people who graduated from Devry around the time I graduated from ITT. > > They > > > were good - and they all thought very highly of Devry (my guess is > about > > > the same for U of Phoenix, and I have talked to people who went there > > too, > > > with similar experiences). > > > > > > Fast forward to about two years ago, I was hiring for a report writer. > > My > > > needs were pretty simple, you had to be able to operate in SQL server, > > know > > > something about programming, and generally be a "technical" person (one > > of > > > my questions was "have you ever tried to program your cell phone" just > to > > > see if the person was a "tinkerer"). > > > > > > Everyone from Devry failed miserably. Most of them couldn't even tell > me > > > how you would get data from a table (much like James's question), or > even > > > be able to log in to Management Studio (keep in mind, this was after I > > > warned each person what they were expected to do). > > > > > > FWIW, I also had a candidate from a public university (cannot remember > > > which one) who also failed miserably, but his degree was about 20 years > > > old. > > > > > > For myself, I am currently going to Western Governors University. I > need > > > the piece of paper, and WGU's way of doing things works great for my > > > current schedule (you take tests whenever the test center allows you > to, > > > everything is online, and you don't have a set schedule). The school > is > > > regionally and nationally accredited (FWIW), and I have found that even > > > with my extensive background in IT, that some of the classes are > actually > > > providing me with new information. I would certainly suggest it for > > anyone > > > who is thinking about going to a for profit college because of time > > > restrictions if for no other reason than it is accredited and > relatively > > > cheap (a year costs about $6,000.00 which you can't touch at either > Devry > > > or Phoenix and you can't even take three classes at ITT for that). > > > > > > Given my expereince at WGU, I would certainly not hold it against > someone > > > if they graduated from there, but I wouldn't hire them just because of > it > > > either. > > > > > > If I were in the market to hire a developer, I would make them actually > > > program. Anyone who hires someone based on a college degree or > > experience > > > alone deserves to end up with someone who doesn't know how to program. > > The > > > caveat being that if someone actually has code in the wild and uses > that > > as > > > part of their interview I would say that is a good indicator, but I > would > > > still be a huge proponent of testing as part of the hiring process. > > > > > > I know that there are plenty of people who probably wouldn't hire me > > right > > > now because I don't have a bachelor's degree. > > > > > > I am sure that there are some who might not even after I graduate from > > WGU. > > > > > > > > > That's their decision, and IMHO their loss. > > > > > > A degree doesn't mean jack if you can't program or actually do what it > > says > > > on the piece of paper, and in my experience plenty of people who > graduate > > > from notable universities (a person I used to know who had an advanced > > > degree from a public university comes to mind) who still can't program, > > or > > > who write programs that are absolutely rubbish and not worth the bits > > they > > > are stored in. There are also plenty of programmers who are > reasonably > > > good at writing good code, but who know almost nothing about IT in > > general, > > > but that's a completely different subject all together ;). > > > > > > I have always looked at a degree as a "I sat through four years of > crap" > > > license. It basically means you can start and finish something, which > > > isn't nothing but it isn't everything. > > > > > > Again, my 0.02. I may be an anomaly, but I wouldn't not hire someone > > > because they didn't go to a notable university, but (having been burned > > in > > > the not so recent past) I also don't hire people based on what they say > > > they can do, or where they sat for four years. > > > > > > I hire people who can actually do what they say they can do. In other > > > words, actions speak louder than words. > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > > > Aleksei > > > > > > > > > On 24 March 2014 14:07, James Noble <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 9:18 AM, Kevin Jensen <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have a quick question. For those that hire, how important is the > > > > > institution that a prospective employee received his or her degree? > > By > > > > that > > > > > I mean does an applicant that received a BS from the University of > > Utah > > > > > seem more desirable than someone who received their degree from > > > > University > > > > > of Phoenix? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have done some hiring and the worst candidates I had were graduates > > > from > > > > the University of Phoenix. I don't want to say that everyone that > goes > > > > there can't program but that is my experience. I asked two questions > > to > > > a > > > > couple of candidates. I asked them to write a select statement from > a > > > > table to get all data from the table. I also asked them to write a > > loop > > > > statement. I am not sure why I asked them to do this because I don't > > > > normally but the candidates I asked this were unable to do it. I > got > > > the > > > > feeling that for profit colleges were more interested in passing > > someone > > > > than teaching them. > > > > > > > > If you are looking for where to go personally then I agree with what > > has > > > > already been said. Work experience trumps school names. When I went > > to > > > > school some students were getting a BS because their work required it > > to > > > > advance in the company. If that is the case then just look at the > cost > > > of > > > > the school compared with the time to graduate and the expected salary > > > bump. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mac Newbold > > [email protected] > > 801-694-6334 > > <http://www.codegreene.com> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > UPHPU mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UPHPU mailing list > [email protected] > http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu > IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net > _______________________________________________ UPHPU mailing list [email protected] http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
