Hi all, I think forum might be a good choice for search and maintain. However, unlike slack workspace, it seems no existing popular product could be leveraged easily.
Thus, I am +1 to create an Apache Flink slack channel. If the ASF slack cannot be joined easily for most of users, I prefer to set up our own slack workspace. Best Yun Tang ________________________________ From: Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 10:49 To: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> Cc: dev <d...@flink.apache.org>; user <user@flink.apache.org> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace Hi all, Regarding using ASF slack. I share the problems I saw in the Apache Druid community. [1] > As you may have heard, it’s become increasingly difficult for new users without an @apache.org email address to join the ASF #druid Slack channel. ASF Infra disabled the option to publicly provide a link to the workspace to anyone who wanted it, after encountering issues with spammers. > Per Infra’s guidance (https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), new community members should only be invited as single-channel guests. Unfortunately, single-channel guests are unable to extend invitations to new members, including their colleagues who are using Druid. Only someone with full member privileges is able to extend an invitation to new members. This lack of consistency doesn’t make the community feel inclusive. > There is a workaround in place ( https://github.com/apache/druid-website-src/pull/278) – users can send an email to druid-u...@googlegroups.com to request an invite to the Slack channel from an existing member – but this still poses a barrier to entry, and isn’t a viable permanent solution. It also creates potential privacy issues as not everyone is at liberty to announce they’re using Druid nor wishes to display their email address in a public forum. [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/f36tvfwfo2ssf1x3jb4q0v2pftdyo5z5 Best, Jingsong On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 10:22 AM Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> wrote: > To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? >> > > Sure, then I'd be +1 for chat. From my side, the initiative is more about > making communication more efficient, rather than making information easier > to find. > > Thank you~ > > Xintong Song > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Konstantin Knauf <kna...@apache.org> > wrote: > >> I don't think we can maintain two additional channels. Some people have >> already concerns about covering one additional channel. >> >> I think, a forum provides a better user experience than a mailing list. >> Information is structured better, you can edit messages, sign up and search >> is easier. >> >> To make some progress, maybe we decide on chat vs forum vs none and then >> go into a deeper discussion on the implementation or is there anything >> about Slack that would be complete blocker for the implementation? >> >> >> >> Am Mi., 11. Mai 2022 um 07:35 Uhr schrieb Xintong Song < >> tonysong...@gmail.com>: >> >>> I agree with Robert on reworking the "Community" and "Getting Help" >>> pages to emphasize how we position the mailing lists and Slack, and on >>> revisiting in 6-12 months. >>> >>> Concerning dedicated Apache Flink Slack vs. ASF Slack, I'm with >>> Konstantin. I'd expect it to be easier for having more channels and keeping >>> them organized, managing permissions for different roles, adding bots, etc. >>> >>> IMO, having Slack is about improving the communication efficiency when >>> you are already in a discussion, and we expect such improvement would >>> motivate users to interact more with each other. From that perspective, >>> forums are not much better than mailing lists. >>> >>> I'm also open to forums as well, but not as an alternative to Slack. I >>> definitely see how forums help in keeping information organized and easy to >>> find. However, I'm a bit concerned about the maintenance overhead. I'm not >>> very familiar with Discourse or Reddit. My impression is that they are not >>> as easy to set up and maintain as Slack. >>> >>> Thank you~ >>> >>> Xintong Song >>> >>> >>> [1] https://asktug.com/ >>> >>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 4:50 PM Konstantin Knauf <kna...@apache.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for starting this discussion again. I am pretty much with Timo >>>> here. Slack or Discourse as an alternative for the user community, and >>>> mailing list for the contributing, design discussion, etc. I definitely see >>>> the friction of joining a mailing list and understand if users are >>>> intimidated. >>>> >>>> I am leaning towards a forum aka Discourse over a chat aka Slack. This >>>> is about asking for help, finding information and thoughtful discussion >>>> more so than casual chatting, right? For this a forum, where it is easier >>>> to find and comment on older threads and topics just makes more sense to >>>> me. A well-done Discourse forum is much more inviting and vibrant than a >>>> mailing list. Just from a tool perspective, discourse would have the >>>> advantage of being Open Source and so we could probably self-host it on an >>>> ASF machine. [1] >>>> >>>> When it comes to Slack, I definitely see the benefit of a dedicated >>>> Apache Flink Slack compared to ASF Slack. For example, we could have more >>>> channels (e.g. look how many channels Airflow is using >>>> http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org) and we could generally >>>> customize the experience more towards Apache Flink. If we go for Slack, >>>> let's definitely try to archive it like Airflow did. If we do this, we >>>> don't necessarily need infinite message retention in Slack itself. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Konstantin >>>> >>>> [1] https://github.com/discourse/discourse >>>> >>>> >>>> Am Di., 10. Mai 2022 um 10:20 Uhr schrieb Timo Walther < >>>> twal...@apache.org>: >>>> >>>>> I also think that a real-time channel is long overdue. The Flink >>>>> community in China has shown that such a platform can be useful for >>>>> improving the collaboration within the community. The DingTalk channel of >>>>> 10k+ users collectively helping each other is great to see. It could also >>>>> reduce the burden from committers for answering frequently asked >>>>> questions. >>>>> >>>>> Personally, I'm a mailing list fan esp. when it comes to design >>>>> discussions. In my opinion, the dev@ mailing list should definitely >>>>> stay where and how it is. However, I understand that users might not want >>>>> to subscribe to a mailing list for a single question and get their mailbox >>>>> filled with unrelated discussions afterwards. Esp. in a company setting it >>>>> might not be easy to setup a dedicated email address for mailing lists and >>>>> setting up rules is also not convenient. >>>>> >>>>> It would be great if we could use the ASF Slack. We should find an >>>>> official, accessible channel. I would be open for the right tool. It might >>>>> make sense to also look into Discourse or even Reddit? The latter would >>>>> definitely be easier to index by a search engine. Discourse is actually >>>>> made for modern real-time forums. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Timo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am 10.05.22 um 09:59 schrieb David Anderson: >>>>> >>>>> Thank you @Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> for sharing the >>>>> experience of the Flink China community. >>>>> >>>>> I'm become convinced we should give Slack a try, both for discussions >>>>> among the core developers, and as a place where the community can reach >>>>> out >>>>> for help. I am in favor of using the ASF slack, as we will need a paid >>>>> instance for this to go well, and joining it is easy enough (took me about >>>>> 2 minutes). Thanks, Robert, for suggesting we go down this route. >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, May 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM Robert Metzger <rmetz...@apache.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It seems that we'd have to use invite links on the Flink website for >>>>>> people to join our Slack (1) >>>>>> These links can be configured to have no time-expiration, but they >>>>>> will expire after 100 guests have joined. >>>>>> I guess we'd have to use a URL shortener (https://s.apache.org) that >>>>>> we update once the invite link expires. It's not a nice solution, but >>>>>> it'll >>>>>> work. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> (1) https://the-asf.slack.com/archives/CBX4TSBQ8/p1652125017094159 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:59 PM Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF >>>>>>> Slack is indeed not ideal: >>>>>>> https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel >>>>>>> I'll see if we can improve it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser < >>>>>>> martijnvis...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, >>>>>>>> you can >>>>>>>> only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a >>>>>>>> committer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the >>>>>>>> summary Xintong! >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using >>>>>>>> the ASF >>>>>>>> > Slack instance? >>>>>>>> > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, >>>>>>>> and quite >>>>>>>> > a few people are already on that Slack instance. >>>>>>>> > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>> > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into >>>>>>>> it, on a >>>>>>>> > voluntary basis. >>>>>>>> > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for >>>>>>>> developer >>>>>>>> > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and >>>>>>>> "Getting >>>>>>>> > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground >>>>>>>> truth tools" >>>>>>>> > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster >>>>>>>> communication, but >>>>>>>> > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to >>>>>>>> DMs) >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and >>>>>>>> google-indexable. >>>>>>>> > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining >>>>>>>> > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. >>>>>>>> > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some >>>>>>>> > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool. >>>>>>>> > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad >>>>>>>> > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the >>>>>>>> advanced >>>>>>>> > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to >>>>>>>> find that >>>>>>>> > goldmine of information. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would >>>>>>>> suggest >>>>>>>> > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all >>>>>>>> important >>>>>>>> > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we >>>>>>>> get the >>>>>>>> > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to >>>>>>>> developers, >>>>>>>> > indexing). >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song < >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for >>>>>>>> dev >>>>>>>> >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the >>>>>>>> MLs. >>>>>>>> >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies >>>>>>>> what people >>>>>>>> >> should / should not do. >>>>>>>> >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think >>>>>>>> that also >>>>>>>> >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a >>>>>>>> no-reply as a >>>>>>>> >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of >>>>>>>> conduct. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern >>>>>>>> is that, we >>>>>>>> >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from >>>>>>>> different users, >>>>>>>> >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical >>>>>>>> >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the >>>>>>>> archivability and >>>>>>>> >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but >>>>>>>> none of them >>>>>>>> >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments. >>>>>>>> >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more >>>>>>>> efficient? By >>>>>>>> >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and >>>>>>>> helpers with >>>>>>>> >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, >>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>> >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David >>>>>>>> mentioned.) >>>>>>>> >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on >>>>>>>> MLs are >>>>>>>> >> now >>>>>>>> >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that >>>>>>>> into the >>>>>>>> >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and >>>>>>>> initiate >>>>>>>> >> questions on MLs. >>>>>>>> >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China >>>>>>>> community. >>>>>>>> >> We >>>>>>>> >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, >>>>>>>> I didn't >>>>>>>> >> do >>>>>>>> >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> >> excited >>>>>>>> >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & >>>>>>>> users than >>>>>>>> >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing >>>>>>>> >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations >>>>>>>> and solving >>>>>>>> >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not >>>>>>>> proactively >>>>>>>> >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more >>>>>>>> active compared >>>>>>>> >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of >>>>>>>> interaction >>>>>>>> >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly >>>>>>>> asked & >>>>>>>> >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a >>>>>>>> >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can >>>>>>>> bring such >>>>>>>> >> success to the global English-speaking community. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention >>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>> >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. >>>>>>>> I think >>>>>>>> >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Thank you~ >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> Xintong Song >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> [1] https://zapier.com/ >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li < >>>>>>>> jingsongl...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their >>>>>>>> slack >>>>>>>> >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc. >>>>>>>> >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate >>>>>>>> back and >>>>>>>> >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to >>>>>>>> >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. >>>>>>>> >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing >>>>>>>> list and >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>>>>>>> >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson < >>>>>>>> dander...@apache.org> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a >>>>>>>> result I get a >>>>>>>> >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it >>>>>>>> on a >>>>>>>> >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack >>>>>>>> overflow >>>>>>>> >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary >>>>>>>> expertise >>>>>>>> >> takes >>>>>>>> >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective >>>>>>>> energy >>>>>>>> >> to do >>>>>>>> >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would >>>>>>>> be a good >>>>>>>> >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to >>>>>>>> request help >>>>>>>> >> from >>>>>>>> >> > those who are already actively providing support on the >>>>>>>> existing >>>>>>>> >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very >>>>>>>> interesting cases >>>>>>>> >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out >>>>>>>> what's going >>>>>>>> >> on. >>>>>>>> >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are >>>>>>>> unusual, or >>>>>>>> >> when a >>>>>>>> >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > David >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin < >>>>>>>> becket....@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the >>>>>>>> previous >>>>>>>> >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a >>>>>>>> slack >>>>>>>> >> channel >>>>>>>> >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this >>>>>>>> topic is >>>>>>>> >> raised >>>>>>>> >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. >>>>>>>> Although it has >>>>>>>> >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> >> who >>>>>>>> >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a >>>>>>>> lot of >>>>>>>> >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves >>>>>>>> no public >>>>>>>> >> > record at all. >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink >>>>>>>> PMC, some >>>>>>>> >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the >>>>>>>> suggestions of >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good >>>>>>>> starting >>>>>>>> >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the >>>>>>>> worst >>>>>>>> >> case, we >>>>>>>> >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right >>>>>>>> now. >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin >>>>>>>> >> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < >>>>>>>> mart...@ververica.com >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> >> indexed >>>>>>>> >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack >>>>>>>> content >>>>>>>> >> unless >>>>>>>> >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has >>>>>>>> progressed >>>>>>>> >> and >>>>>>>> >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to >>>>>>>> users. There >>>>>>>> >> are >>>>>>>> >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow >>>>>>>> [1]. I also >>>>>>>> >> see >>>>>>>> >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing >>>>>>>> well-known >>>>>>>> >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can >>>>>>>> cause a >>>>>>>> >> lot >>>>>>>> >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish >>>>>>>> a set of >>>>>>>> >> > community rules. >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Best regards, >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> Martijn >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ >>>>>>>> >> > >>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski < >>>>>>>> pnowoj...@apache.org> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO >>>>>>>> it works >>>>>>>> >> > great as >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> >> > searchable >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as >>>>>>>> long as >>>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>>> >> > result >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing >>>>>>>> list/design >>>>>>>> >> > doc. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to >>>>>>>> achieve. In >>>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same >>>>>>>> questions over, >>>>>>>> >> > and >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> >> > previous >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel >>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels >>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>> >> > users. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, >>>>>>>> >> > stackoverflow. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the >>>>>>>> oldest/newest >>>>>>>> >> > at top) >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our >>>>>>>> use case >>>>>>>> >> much >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> better IMO. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Best, >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> Piotrek >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song < >>>>>>>> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >> > napisał(a): >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack >>>>>>>> workspace >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is >>>>>>>> *repeatedly* >>>>>>>> >> > discussed on the >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which >>>>>>>> are 4 years >>>>>>>> >> > ago. On >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking >>>>>>>> questions about >>>>>>>> >> > whether >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also >>>>>>>> find a >>>>>>>> >> recent >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative >>>>>>>> >> communication >>>>>>>> >> > channels >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open >>>>>>>> to having >>>>>>>> >> such >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> >> projects >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > already. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during >>>>>>>> the past >>>>>>>> >> 4 >>>>>>>> >> > years. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC >>>>>>>> members, >>>>>>>> >> > and even >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. >>>>>>>> That also >>>>>>>> >> > means more >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous >>>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>> >> > Instead of >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, >>>>>>>> here we are >>>>>>>> >> > proposing >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And >>>>>>>> instead >>>>>>>> >> of >>>>>>>> >> > *moving* >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack >>>>>>>> >> Workspace >>>>>>>> >> > as an >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous >>>>>>>> -1 [1]. >>>>>>>> >> > IIUR, these >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I >>>>>>>> overlooked >>>>>>>> >> > anything, >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > please let me know. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> >>>>>>>> the ASF >>>>>>>> >> Slack >>>>>>>> >> > isn't >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>> >> > questionable >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. >>>>>>>> If anyone >>>>>>>> >> > can >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > provide >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> >> GitHub. >>>>>>>> >> > All of >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack >>>>>>>> channel >>>>>>>> >> > requires an >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a >>>>>>>> committer. This >>>>>>>> >> > minimizes the >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>> >> prefer >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > something >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole >>>>>>>> community. I'll >>>>>>>> >> > forward this >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Thank you~ >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Xintong Song >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [1] >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [2] >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [3] >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [4] >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > [5] >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler < >>>>>>>> >> ches...@apache.org >>>>>>>> >> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the >>>>>>>> years and >>>>>>>> >> > was >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would >>>>>>>> invalidate the >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > previously >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide >>>>>>>> anyway, but >>>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>>> >> > project >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > as a whole. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the >>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>> >> list. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are >>>>>>>> surprised >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to >>>>>>>> use Slack. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source >>>>>>>> communities >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking >>>>>>>> people for >>>>>>>> >> > opinions >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > and >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > use cases. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but >>>>>>>> also a >>>>>>>> >> > connection to >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community >>>>>>>> have more >>>>>>>> >> social >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and >>>>>>>> >> > presentations >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I >>>>>>>> can help >>>>>>>> >> set >>>>>>>> >> > up the >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Best, >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > Jark >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song < >>>>>>>> >> tonysong...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache >>>>>>>> Flink >>>>>>>> >> slack >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> workspace. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time >>>>>>>> communication >>>>>>>> >> > through >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time >>>>>>>> >> computing, >>>>>>>> >> > should >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, >>>>>>>> especially >>>>>>>> >> for >>>>>>>> >> > ad-hoc >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more >>>>>>>> contributors >>>>>>>> >> from >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > different >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be >>>>>>>> good to >>>>>>>> >> > provide a >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > common >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. >>>>>>>> Therefore, I'd >>>>>>>> >> > propose to >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > create >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained >>>>>>>> by the >>>>>>>> >> Flink >>>>>>>> >> > PMC. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less >>>>>>>> likely >>>>>>>> >> > overlooked. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file >>>>>>>> transmissions >>>>>>>> >> > that help >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, >>>>>>>> flink-statefun, >>>>>>>> >> > temporal >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.). >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>> >> than a >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> >> still >>>>>>>> >> > be >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > able to >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing >>>>>>>> lists. That >>>>>>>> >> means: >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important >>>>>>>> opinions >>>>>>>> >> should >>>>>>>> >> > be >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, >>>>>>>> according to >>>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>>> >> > Apache >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it >>>>>>>> didn’t happen. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc >>>>>>>> questions on >>>>>>>> >> > slack. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > Long >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) >>>>>>>> should be >>>>>>>> >> > posted on >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > the >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a >>>>>>>> real time >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > discussion. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need >>>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>> >> > responsive. We >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all >>>>>>>> contributors are >>>>>>>> >> > volunteers. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier >>>>>>>> only when >>>>>>>> >> all >>>>>>>> >> > the >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > peers >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people >>>>>>>> should not >>>>>>>> >> > expect >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often >>>>>>>> mentioned with is >>>>>>>> >> > its lack >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > of >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search >>>>>>>> among them. >>>>>>>> >> > There are >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As >>>>>>>> a first >>>>>>>> >> > step, we may >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back >>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> >> > mailing >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > lists. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected >>>>>>>> back to >>>>>>>> >> the >>>>>>>> >> > mailing >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and >>>>>>>> >> searchability. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects >>>>>>>> (Apache >>>>>>>> >> > hosted or >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > not) >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], >>>>>>>> IceBerg [3], >>>>>>>> >> > HBase [4] >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> etc. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we >>>>>>>> would need >>>>>>>> >> an >>>>>>>> >> > official >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before >>>>>>>> we get to >>>>>>>> >> > that, I’d >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > like >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> [4] >>>>>>>> >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> https://twitter.com/snntrable >>>> https://github.com/knaufk >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> https://twitter.com/snntrable >> https://github.com/knaufk >> >
