Thanks a lot for your answer. The onboarding experience to the ASF Slack is indeed not ideal: https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/join#join-the-slack-channel I'll see if we can improve it
On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:38 PM Martijn Visser <martijnvis...@apache.org> wrote: > As far as I recall you can't sign up for the ASF instance of Slack, you can > only get there if you're a committer or if you're invited by a committer. > > On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 15:15, Robert Metzger <metrob...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Sorry for joining this discussion late, and thanks for the summary > Xintong! > > > > Why are we considering a separate slack instance instead of using the ASF > > Slack instance? > > The ASF instance is paid, so all messages are retained forever, and quite > > a few people are already on that Slack instance. > > There is already a #flink channel on that Slack instance, that we could > > leave as passive as it is right now, or put some more effort into it, on > a > > voluntary basis. > > We could add another #flink-dev channel to that Slack for developer > > discussions, and a private flink-committer and flink-pmc chat. > > > > If we are going that path, we should rework the "Community" and "Getting > > Help" pages and explain that the mailing lists are the "ground truth > tools" > > in Flink, and Slack is only there to facilitate faster communication, but > > it is optional / voluntary (e.g. a committers won't respond to DMs) > > > > All public #flink-* channels should be archived and google-indexable. > > I've asked Jarek from Airflow who's maintaining > > http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org. > > If we can't use slack-archives.org, it would be nice to find some > > volunteers in the Flink community to hack a simple indexing tool. > > The indexing part is very important for me, because of some bad > > experiences with the Kubernetes experience, where most of the advanced > > stuff is hidden in their Slack, and it took me a few weeks to find that > > goldmine of information. > > > > Overall, I see this as an experiment worth doing, but I would suggest > > revisiting it in 6 to 12 months: We should check if really all important > > decisions are mirrored to the right mailing lists, and that we get the > > benefits we hoped for (more adoption, better experience for users and > > developers), and that we can handle the concerns (DMs to developers, > > indexing). > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:22 PM Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Thanks all for the valuable feedback. > >> > >> It seems most people are overall positive about using Slack for dev > >> discussions, as long as they are properly reflected back to the MLs. > >> - We definitely need a code of conduct that clearly specifies what > people > >> should / should not do. > >> - Contributors pinging well-known reviewers /committers, I think that > also > >> happens now on JIRA / Github. Personally, I'd understand a no-reply as a > >> "soft no". We may consider to also put that in the cod of conduct. > >> > >> Concerning using Slack for user QAs, it seem the major concern is that, > we > >> may end up repeatedly answering the same questions from different users, > >> due to lack of capacity for archiving and searching historical > >> conversations. TBH, I don't have a good solution for the archivability > and > >> searchability. I investigated some tools like Zapier [1], but none of > them > >> seems suitable for us. However, I'd like to share 2 arguments. > >> - The purpose of Slack is to make the communication more efficient? By > >> *efficient*, I mean saving time for both question askers and helpers > with > >> instance messages, file transmissions, even voice / video calls, etc. > >> (Especially for cases where back and forth is needed, as David > mentioned.) > >> It does not mean questions that do not get enough attentions on MLs are > >> now > >> guaranteed to be answered immediately. We can probably put that into the > >> code of conduct, and kindly guide users to first search and initiate > >> questions on MLs. > >> - I'd also like to share some experience from the Flink China community. > >> We > >> have 3 DingTalk groups with totally 25k members (might be less, I didn't > >> do > >> deduplication), posting hundreds of messages daily. What I'm really > >> excited > >> about is that, there are way more interactions between users & users > than > >> between users & developers. Users are helping each other, sharing > >> experiences, sending screenshots / log files / documentations and > solving > >> problems together. We the developers seldom get pinged, if not > proactively > >> joined the conversations. The DingTalk groups are way more active > compared > >> to the user-zh@ ML, which I'd attribute to the improvement of > interaction > >> experiences. Admittedly, there are questions being repeatedly asked & > >> answered, but TBH I don't think that compares to the benefit of a > >> self-driven user community. I'd really love to see if we can bring such > >> success to the global English-speaking community. > >> > >> Concerning StackOverFlow, it definitely worth more attention from the > >> community. Thanks for the suggestion / reminder, Piotr & David. I think > >> Slack and StackOverFlow are probably not mutual exclusive. > >> > >> Thank you~ > >> > >> Xintong Song > >> > >> > >> [1] https://zapier.com/ > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 9:50 AM Jingsong Li <jingsongl...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > Most of the open source communities I know have set up their slack > >> > channels, such as Apache Iceberg [1], Apache Druid [2], etc. > >> > So I think slack can be worth trying. > >> > > >> > David is right, there are some cases that need to communicate back and > >> > forth, slack communication will be more effective. > >> > > >> > But back to the question, ultimately it's about whether there are > >> > enough core developers willing to invest time in the slack, to > >> > discuss, to answer questions, to communicate. > >> > And whether there will be enough time to reply to the mailing list and > >> > stackoverflow after we put in the slack (which we need to do). > >> > > >> > [1] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > >> > [2] https://druid.apache.org/community/ > >> > > >> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:06 PM David Anderson <dander...@apache.org> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > I have mixed feelings about this. > >> > > > >> > > I have been rather visible on stack overflow, and as a result I get > a > >> > lot of DMs asking for help. I enjoy helping, but want to do it on a > >> > platform where the responses can be searched and shared. > >> > > > >> > > It is currently the case that good questions on stack overflow > >> > frequently go unanswered because no one with the necessary expertise > >> takes > >> > the time to respond. If the Flink community has the collective energy > >> to do > >> > more user outreach, more involvement on stack overflow would be a good > >> > place to start. Adding slack as another way for users to request help > >> from > >> > those who are already actively providing support on the existing > >> > communication channels might just lead to burnout. > >> > > > >> > > On the other hand, there are rather rare, but very interesting cases > >> > where considerable back and forth is needed to figure out what's going > >> on. > >> > This can happen, for example, when the requirements are unusual, or > >> when a > >> > difficult to diagnose bug is involved. In these circumstances, > something > >> > like slack is much better suited than email or stack overflow. > >> > > > >> > > David > >> > > > >> > > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:04 PM Becket Qin <becket....@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks for the proposal, Xintong. > >> > >> > >> > >> While I share the same concerns as those mentioned in the previous > >> > discussion thread, admittedly there are benefits of having a slack > >> channel > >> > as a supplementary way to discuss Flink. The fact that this topic is > >> raised > >> > once a while indicates lasting interests. > >> > >> > >> > >> Personally I am open to having such a slack channel. Although it > has > >> > drawbacks, it serves a different purpose. I'd imagine that for people > >> who > >> > prefer instant messaging, in absence of the slack channel, a lot of > >> > discussions might just take place offline today, which leaves no > public > >> > record at all. > >> > >> > >> > >> One step further, if the channel is maintained by the Flink PMC, > some > >> > kind of code of conduct might be necessary. I think the suggestions of > >> > ad-hoc conversations, reflecting back to the emails are good starting > >> > points. I am +1 to give it a try and see how it goes. In the worst > >> case, we > >> > can just stop doing this and come back to where we are right now. > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> > >> > >> Jiangjie (Becket) Qin > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 8:55 PM Martijn Visser < > mart...@ververica.com > >> > > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Hi everyone, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> While I see Slack having a major downside (the results are not > >> indexed > >> > by external search engines, you can't link directly to Slack content > >> unless > >> > you've signed up), I do think that the open source space has > progressed > >> and > >> > that Slack is considered as something that's invaluable to users. > There > >> are > >> > other Apache programs that also run it, like Apache Airflow [1]. I > also > >> see > >> > it as a potential option to create a more active community. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> A concern I can see is that users will start DMing well-known > >> > reviewers/committers to get a review or a PR merged. That can cause a > >> lot > >> > of noise. I can go +1 for Slack, but then we need to establish a set > of > >> > community rules. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Best regards, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Martijn > >> > >>> > >> > >>> [1] https://airflow.apache.org/community/ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 13:59, Piotr Nowojski <pnowoj...@apache.org > > > >> > wrote: > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Hi Xintong, > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> I'm not sure if slack is the right tool for the job. IMO it works > >> > great as > >> > >>>> an adhoc tool for discussion between developers, but it's not > >> > searchable > >> > >>>> and it's not persistent. Between devs, it works fine, as long as > >> the > >> > result > >> > >>>> of the ad hoc discussions is backported to JIRA/mailing > list/design > >> > doc. > >> > >>>> For users, that simply would be extremely difficult to achieve. > In > >> the > >> > >>>> result, I would be afraid we are answering the same questions > over, > >> > and > >> > >>>> over and over again, without even a way to provide a link to the > >> > previous > >> > >>>> thread, because nobody can search for it . > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> I'm +1 for having an open and shared slack space/channel for the > >> > >>>> contributors, but I think I would be -1 for such channels for the > >> > users. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> For users, I would prefer to focus more on, for example, > >> > stackoverflow. > >> > >>>> With upvoting, clever sorting of the answers (not the > oldest/newest > >> > at top) > >> > >>>> it's easily searchable - those features make it fit our use case > >> much > >> > >>>> better IMO. > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> Best, > >> > >>>> Piotrek > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> pt., 6 maj 2022 o 11:08 Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > >> > napisał(a): > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > >> > >>>> > From: Xintong Song <tonysong...@gmail.com> > >> > >>>> > Date: Fri, May 6, 2022 at 5:07 PM > >> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [Discuss] Creating an Apache Flink slack workspace > >> > >>>> > To: private <priv...@flink.apache.org> > >> > >>>> > Cc: Chesnay Schepler <ches...@apache.org> > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > Hi Chesnay, > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't find this is *repeatedly* > >> > discussed on the > >> > >>>> > ML. The only discussions I find are [1] & [2], which are 4 > years > >> > ago. On > >> > >>>> > the other hand, I do find many users are asking questions about > >> > whether > >> > >>>> > Slack should be supported [2][3][4]. Besides, I also find a > >> recent > >> > >>>> > discussion thread from ComDev [5], where alternative > >> communication > >> > channels > >> > >>>> > are being discussed. It seems to me ASF is quite open to having > >> such > >> > >>>> > additional channels and they have been worked well for many > >> projects > >> > >>>> > already. > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > I see two reasons for brining this discussion again: > >> > >>>> > 1. There are indeed many things that have change during the > past > >> 4 > >> > years. > >> > >>>> > We have more contributors, including committers and PMC > members, > >> > and even > >> > >>>> > more users from various organizations and timezones. That also > >> > means more > >> > >>>> > discussions and Q&As are happening. > >> > >>>> > 2. The proposal here is different from the previous discussion. > >> > Instead of > >> > >>>> > maintaining a channel for Flink in the ASF workspace, here we > are > >> > proposing > >> > >>>> > to create a dedicated Apache Flink slack workspace. And instead > >> of > >> > *moving* > >> > >>>> > the discussion to Slack, we are proposing to add a Slack > >> Workspace > >> > as an > >> > >>>> > addition to the ML. > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > Below is your opinions that I found from your previous -1 [1]. > >> > IIUR, these > >> > >>>> > are all about the using ASF Slack Workspace. If I overlooked > >> > anything, > >> > >>>> > please let me know. > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > 1. According to INFRA-14292 < > >> > >>>> > > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-14292> the ASF > >> Slack > >> > isn't > >> > >>>> > > run by the ASF. This alone puts this service into rather > >> > questionable > >> > >>>> > > territory as it /looks/ like an official ASF service. If > anyone > >> > can > >> > >>>> > provide > >> > >>>> > > information to the contrary, please do so. > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > 2. We already discuss things on the mailing lists, JIRA and > >> GitHub. > >> > All of > >> > >>>> > > these are available to the public, whereas the slack channel > >> > requires an > >> > >>>> > > @apache mail address, i.e. you have to be a committer. This > >> > minimizes the > >> > >>>> > > target audience rather significantly. I would much rather > >> prefer > >> > >>>> > something > >> > >>>> > > that is also available to contributors. > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > I do agree this should be decided by the whole community. I'll > >> > forward this > >> > >>>> > to dev@ and user@ ML. > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > Thank you~ > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > Xintong Song > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > [1] > >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/gxwv49ssq82g06dbhy339x6rdxtlcv3d > >> > >>>> > [2] > >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kcym1sozkrtwxw1fjbnwk1nqrrlzolcc > >> > >>>> > [3] > >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/7rmd3ov6sv3wwhflp97n4czz25hvmqm6 > >> > >>>> > [4] > >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/n5y1kzv50bkkbl3ys494dglyxl45bmts > >> > >>>> > [5] > >> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/fzwd3lj0x53hkq3od5ot0y719dn3kj1j > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 3:05 PM Chesnay Schepler < > >> ches...@apache.org > >> > > > >> > >>>> > wrote: > >> > >>>> > > >> > >>>> > > This has been repeatedly discussed on the ML over the years > and > >> > was > >> > >>>> > > rejected every time. > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > I don't see that anything has changed that would invalidate > the > >> > >>>> > previously > >> > >>>> > > raised arguments against it, so I'm still -1 on it. > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > This is also not something the PMC should decide anyway, but > >> the > >> > project > >> > >>>> > > as a whole. > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > On 06/05/2022 06:48, Jark Wu wrote: > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > Thank Xintong, for starting this exciting topic. > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > I think Slack would be an essential addition to the mailing > >> list. > >> > >>>> > > I have talked with some Flink users, and they are surprised > >> > >>>> > > Flink doesn't have Slack yet, and they would love to use > Slack. > >> > >>>> > > We can also see a trend that new open-source communities > >> > >>>> > > are using Slack as the community base camp. > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > Slack is also helpful for brainstorming and asking people for > >> > opinions > >> > >>>> > and > >> > >>>> > > use cases. > >> > >>>> > > I think Slack is not only another place for Q&A but also a > >> > connection to > >> > >>>> > > the Flink users. > >> > >>>> > > We can create more channels to make the community have more > >> social > >> > >>>> > > attributes, for example, > >> > >>>> > > - Share ideas, projects, integrations, articles, and > >> > presentations > >> > >>>> > > related to Flink in the #shows channel > >> > >>>> > > - Flink releases, events in the #news channel > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > Thus, I'm +1 to create an Apache Flink slack, and I can help > >> set > >> > up the > >> > >>>> > > Flink slack and maintain it. > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > Best, > >> > >>>> > > Jark > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 10:38, Xintong Song < > >> tonysong...@gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > >> Hi all, > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> I’d like to start a discussion on creating an Apache Flink > >> slack > >> > >>>> > >> workspace. > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Motivation > >> > >>>> > >> Today many organizations choose to do real time > communication > >> > through > >> > >>>> > >> slack. IMHO, we, Flink, as a technique for real time > >> computing, > >> > should > >> > >>>> > >> embrace the more real time way for communication, especially > >> for > >> > ad-hoc > >> > >>>> > >> questions and interactions. With more and more contributors > >> from > >> > >>>> > different > >> > >>>> > >> organizations joining this community, it would be good to > >> > provide a > >> > >>>> > common > >> > >>>> > >> channel for such real time communications. Therefore, I'd > >> > propose to > >> > >>>> > create > >> > >>>> > >> an Apache Flink slack workspace that is maintained by the > >> Flink > >> > PMC. > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Benefits > >> > >>>> > >> - Easier to reach out to people. Messages are less likely > >> > overlooked. > >> > >>>> > >> - Realtime messages, voice / video calls, file transmissions > >> > that help > >> > >>>> > >> improve the communication efficiency. > >> > >>>> > >> - Finer-grained channels (e.g., flink-ml, flink-statefun, > >> > temporal > >> > >>>> > >> discussion channels for specific topics, etc.). > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Relationship with the mailing lists > >> > >>>> > >> I think the slack workspace should be an extension rather > >> than a > >> > >>>> > >> replacement of the mailing lists. Community members should > >> still > >> > be > >> > >>>> > able to > >> > >>>> > >> follow what’s going on from solely the mailing lists. That > >> means: > >> > >>>> > >> a) All the decisions, conclusions and important opinions > >> should > >> > be > >> > >>>> > >> reflected back to the mailing lists. After all, according to > >> the > >> > Apache > >> > >>>> > >> Way, if it didn’t happen on a mailing list, it didn’t > happen. > >> > >>>> > >> b) We should encourage people to only ask ad hoc questions > on > >> > slack. > >> > >>>> > Long > >> > >>>> > >> conversations (or ad hoc questions that grow long) should be > >> > posted on > >> > >>>> > the > >> > >>>> > >> mailing lists, and can be referenced on slack for a real > time > >> > >>>> > discussion. > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Responsiveness > >> > >>>> > >> Using slack does not mean people being pinged need to be > >> > responsive. We > >> > >>>> > >> are in an open-sourced community where all contributors are > >> > volunteers. > >> > >>>> > >> Slack should be used to make communication easier only when > >> all > >> > the > >> > >>>> > peers > >> > >>>> > >> are convenient. We should make it clear that people should > not > >> > expect > >> > >>>> > >> others to always be responsive. > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Archivability and searchability > >> > >>>> > >> One of the shortcomings that Slack is often mentioned with > is > >> > its lack > >> > >>>> > of > >> > >>>> > >> capability to archive conversations and to search among > them. > >> > There are > >> > >>>> > >> various tools that help address this problem[1]. As a first > >> > step, we may > >> > >>>> > >> start with simply relying on reflecting things back to the > >> > mailing > >> > >>>> > lists. > >> > >>>> > >> IMHO, if everything important is properly reflected back to > >> the > >> > mailing > >> > >>>> > >> lists, we don’t really need the archivability and > >> searchability. > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> ## Other communities > >> > >>>> > >> AFAIK, there are many popular open-source projects (Apache > >> > hosted or > >> > >>>> > not) > >> > >>>> > >> that have their own Slack workspace: AirFlow [2], IceBerg > [3], > >> > HBase [4] > >> > >>>> > >> etc. > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> To name the Slack workspace with Apache Flink, we would need > >> an > >> > official > >> > >>>> > >> vote and approval from the PMC members. But before we get to > >> > that, I’d > >> > >>>> > like > >> > >>>> > >> to hear more about what you think. > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> Thank you~ > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> Xintong Song > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > >> [1] http://apache-airflow.slack-archives.org > >> > >>>> > >> [2] https://airflow.apache.org/community > >> > >>>> > >> [3] https://iceberg.apache.org/community/#slack > >> > >>>> > >> [4] > >> https://hbase.apache.org/book.html#trouble.resources.slack > >> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > > >> > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > >
