Hey Dongjoon, Denny and all,
I’ve created the current slack. All users have the option to create channels for different topics.
I don’t see a reason for creating a new one.
If anyone want to be admin on the current slack channel you all are welcome to send me a msg and I’ll grand permission.
Have a great week, Shani Alisar
On 4 Apr 2023, at 3:51, Dongjoon Hyun <dongjoon.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you, Denny.
May I interpret your comment as a request to support multiple channels in ASF too?
> because it would allow us to create multiple channels for different topics
Any other reasons?
Dongjoon.
I do think creating a new Slack channel would be helpful because it would allow us to create multiple channels for different topics - streaming, graph, ML, etc.
We would need a volunteer core to maintain it so we can keep the spirit and letter of ASF / code of conduct. I’d be glad to volunteer to keep this active.
Shall we summarize the discussion so far?
To sum up, "ASF Slack" vs "3rd-party Slack" was the real background to initiate this thread instead of "Slack" vs "Mailing list"?
If ASF Slack provides what you need, is it better than creating a new Slack channel?
Or, is there another reason for us to create a new Slack channel?
I agree, whatever individual sentiments are. Mich Talebzadeh,
Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead Palantir Technologies Limited
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Just to be clear, if there is no strong volunteer to make the new community channel stay active, I'd probably be OK to not fork the channel. You can see a strong counter example from #spark channel in ASF. It is the place where there are only questions and promos but zero answers. I see volunteers here demanding for another channel, so I want to see us go with the most preferred way for these volunteers.
User mailing list does not go in a good shape. I hope we give another try with recent technology to see whether we can gain traction - if we fail, the user mailing list will still be there.
The number of subscribers doesn't give any meaningful value. Please look into the number of mails being sent to the list.
The latest month there were more than 200 emails being sent was Feb 2022, more than a year ago. It was more than 1k in 2016, and more than 2k in 2015 and earlier. Let's face the fact. User mailing list is dying, even before we start discussion about alternative communication methods.
Users never go with the way if it's just because PMC members (or ASF) have preference. They are going with the way they are convenient.
Same applies here - if ASF Slack requires a restricted invitation mechanism then it won't work. Looks like there is a link for an invitation, but we are also talking about the cost as well. As long as we are being serious about the cost, I don't think we are going to land in the way "users" are convenient.
As Mich Talebzadeh pointed out, Apache Spark has an official Slack channel.
> It's unavoidable if "users" prefer to use an alternative communication mechanism rather than the user mailing list.
The following is the number of people in the official channels.
- ASF Official Slack channel has 602 subscribers.
May I ask if the users prefer to use the ASF Official Slack channel than the user mailing list?
Dongjoon.
I'm reading through the page "Briefing: The Apache Way", and in the section of "Open Communications", restriction of communication inside ASF INFRA (mailing list) is more about code and decision-making.
It's unavoidable if "users" prefer to use an alternative communication mechanism rather than the user mailing list. Before Stack Overflow days, there had been a meaningful number of questions around user@. It's just impossible to let them go back and post to the user mailing list.
We just need to make sure it is not the purpose of employing Slack to move all discussions about developments, direction of the project, etc which must happen in dev@/private@. The purpose of Slack thread here does not seem to aim to serve the purpose.
Good discussions and proposals.all around.
I have used slack in anger on a customer site before. For small and medium size groups it is good and affordable. Alternatives have been suggested as well so those who like investigative search can agree and come up with a freebie one. I am inclined to agree with Bjorn that this slack has more social dimensions than the mailing list. It is akin to a sports club using WhatsApp groups for communication. Remember we were originally looking for space for webinars, including Spark on Linkedin that Denney Lee suggested. I think Slack and mailing groups can coexist happily. On a more serious note, when I joined the user group back in 2015-2016, there was a lot of traffic. Currently we hardly get many mails daily <> less than 5. So having a slack type medium may improve members participation.
so +1 for me as well.
Mich Talebzadeh, Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead Palantir Technologies Limited
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+1.
To Shani’s point, there are multiple OSS projects that use the free Slack version - top of mind include Delta, Presto, Flink, Trino, Datahub, MLflow, etc. Hey everyone,
I think we should remain on a free program in slack.
In my option the free program is more then enough, the only down side is we could only see the last 90 days messages.
From what I know the Airflow community (which has strong active community in slack) also use the free program (You can tell by the 90 days limit notice in their workspace).
You can find the pricing and features comparison between the slack programs here .
Have a great day, Shani
Thanks for flagging the concern Dongjoon, I was not aware of the discussion - but I can understand the concern. Would be great if you or Matei could update the thread on the result of deliberations, once it reaches a logical consensus: before we set up official policy around it.
Regards, Mridul
I like the idea of having a talk channel. It can make it easier for everyone to say hello. Or to dare to ask about small or big matters that you would not have dared to ask about before on mailing lists. But then there is the price and what is the best for an open source project.
The price for using slack is expensive. Right now for those that have join spark slack $8.75 USD72 members1 month$630 USD
And they - slack does not have an option for open source projects.
There seems to be some alternatives for open source software. I have not tried it. Like https://www.rocket.chat/blog/slack-open-source-alternatives
Hi Dongjoon
to your points if I may
- Do you have any reference from other official ASF-related Slack channels? No, I don't have any reference from other official ASF-related Slack channels because I don't think that matters. However, I stand corrected - To be clear, I intentionally didn't refer to any specific mailing list because we didn't set up any rule here yet.
fair enough
going back to your original point
..There is a concern expressed by ASF board because recent Slack activities created an isolated silo outside of ASF mailing list archive... Well, there are activities on Spark and indeed other open source software everywhere. One way or other they do help getting community (inside the user groups and other) to get interested and involved. Slack happens to be one of them.
I am of the opinion that creating such silos is already a reality and we ought to be pragmatic. Unless there is an overriding reason, we should embrace it as slack can co-exist with the other mailing lists and channels like linkedin etc.
Hope this clarifies my position
Mich Talebzadeh, Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead Palantir Technologies Limited
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To Mich. - Do you have any reference from other official ASF-related Slack channels? - To be clear, I intentionally didn't refer to any specific mailing list because we didn't set up any rule here yet.
To Xiao. I understand what you mean. That's the reason why I added Matei from your side. > I did not see an objection from the ASF board.
There is on-going discussion about the communication channels outside ASF email which is specifically concerning Slack. Please hold on any official action for this topic. We will know how to support it seamlessly.
Dongjoon.
Hi, Dongjoon,
The other communities (e.g., Pinot, Druid, Flink) created their own Slack workspaces last year. I did not see an objection from the ASF board. At the same time, Slack workspaces are very popular and useful in most non-ASF open source communities. TBH, we are kind of late. I think we can do the same in our community?
We can follow the guide when the ASF has an official process for ASF archiving. Since our PMC are the owner of the slack workspace, we can make a change based on the policy. WDYT?
Xiao
Hi, Xiao and all.
(cc Matei)
Please hold on the vote.
There is a concern expressed by ASF board because recent Slack activities created an isolated silo outside of ASF mailing list archive.
We need to establish a way to embrace it back to ASF archive before starting anything official.
Bests, Dongjoon.
+1
+ @d...@spark.apache.org
This is a good idea. The other Apache projects (e.g., Pinot, Druid, Flink) have created their own dedicated Slack workspaces for faster communication. We can do the same in Apache Spark. The Slack workspace will be maintained by the Apache Spark PMC. I propose to initiate a vote for the creation of a new Apache Spark Slack workspace. Does that sound good?
Cheers,
I created one at slack called pyspark
Mich Talebzadeh, Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead Palantir Technologies Limited
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+1 good idea, I d like to join as well.
Please let us know when the channel is created. I'd like to join :)
Thank You & Best Regards
Winston Lai
+1 I think this is a great idea!
Yeah, actually I think we should better have a slack channel so we can easily discuss with users and developers.
Hi all,
I really like Slack as communication channel for a tech community.
There is a Slack workspace for delta lake users ( https://go.delta.io/slack) that I enjoy a lot.
I was wondering if there is something similar for PySpark users.
If not, would there be anything wrong with creating a new Slack workspace for PySpark users? (when explicitly mentioning that this is
not officially part of Apache Spark)?
Cheers
Martin
-- Asma ZGOLLI
Ph.D. in Big Data - Applied Machine Learning
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