Hi all, I think that making and updating such a list implies tricky questions that we have to deal with. Good examples were given by Matthias, that was my first thought as well before reading his response.
On the other hand I think it would be a good alternative to create a list of companies that are either regular or meaningful contributors to the project, provide other help such as testing infra or sponsors of the project in other ways. This may present those companies who provide support too and I think it'd be some appreciation as well to display them. What do you all think? Best, Viktor On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 10:08 AM Francois Papon < francois.pa...@openobject.fr> wrote: > Hi Tison, > > Publishing a dedicated website for that can be a good idea, however if > the link of the website could not be mention in the official Apache > Kafka website I'm afraid that it will not be relevant. > > BTW, as I understand after all the feedback of the Apache Kafka PMC and > community, my proposal is not a good idea for the project so I will > close the PR. > > Thanks all for the feedback. > > regards, > > François > > On 14/01/2024 12:56, tison wrote: > > FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your > > own page for such information and provide your personal comments on > > them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make > > decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by yourself, > > if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the > > @apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog > > for Kafka blogs. > > > > This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content > > and get it promoted. > > > > Best, > > tison. > > > > Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道： > >> François, > >> > >> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's > >> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, however, I > >> share the same concerns others raised already. > >> > >> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding commercial > >> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am also > >> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become > >> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering Kafka > >> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds of > >> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they are > >> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary > >> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also > >> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some > >> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they are > >> looking for? > >> > >> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and thus it > >> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly > >> against it, but I just don't see much value either. > >> > >> > >> -Matthias > >> > >> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote: > >>> Hi Justine, > >>> > >>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting, > >>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers said > >>> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France for > my > >>> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help them). > >>> > >>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this kind > >>> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka project > >>> because I really think that it can help users. > >>> > >>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" page. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> François > >>> > >>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote: > >>>> Hey François, > >>>> > >>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of > their > >>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to > submit a > >>>> PR to be added. > >>>> > >>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to require > >>>> Kafka > >>>> having such a support page. > >>>> > >>>> Justine > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton < > fearthecel...@gmail.com> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi François, > >>>>> > >>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a listing > of > >>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that other > >>>>> projects > >>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply that > all > >>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point very > >>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns raised by > >>>>> the > >>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an > official > >>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka should > >>>>> align > >>>>> with it. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best, > >>>>> > >>>>> Chris > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fpa...@apache.org> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Justine, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and vendors > >>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the > >>>>>> "powered by" page. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find > support > >>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that > >>>>>> already > >>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/ > >>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html > >>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html > >>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html > >>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html > >>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/ > >>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html > >>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support > >>>>> > https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html > >>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/ > >>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find production > >>>>>> support is: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> - The mailing list (u...@kafka.apache.org / d...@kafka.apache.org) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> - The official #kafka ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it on > the > >>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website => > >>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the "get > >>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make sense. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> regards, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> François > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote: > >>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page and a > page > >>>>>> for > >>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" Kafka. > >>>>> They > >>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka. > >>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those companies > to > >>>>>>> advertise. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm a little confused by > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a description > on > >>>>> how > >>>>>>> your company uses Kafka. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>> Justine > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fpa...@apache.org> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of the > >>>>>>>> "Powered by" page? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their product > >>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), and we > can > >>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their website > >>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of > this > >>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR right? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page? > >>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your > >>>>>>>> organization > >>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you." > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support section in > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> regards, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> François > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote: > >>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that if > >>>>>>>>> we go > >>>>>>>> down > >>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as supporting > >>>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for novice > >>>>>> users. I > >>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source > tooling, > >>>>>> such > >>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>> cruise control. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question > >>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of > >>>>>> Apache > >>>>>>>>> Kafka? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a more > >>>>>>>> synchronous > >>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that out > >>>>> here. > >>>>>> It > >>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> --- > >>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya < > >>>>> divijvaidy...@gmail.com > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information does > this > >>>>>>>> provide > >>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of > >>>>>>>>>> listing > >>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own complications > >>>>>> without > >>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of being > >>>>> vendor > >>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is: > >>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the users of > >>>>>> Apache > >>>>>>>>>> Kafka? > >>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what criteria do > we > >>>>>> have > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket > criteria of > >>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where the > >>>>>>>>>> llink > >>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we > might > >>>>>> have > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds overhead to > >>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> resources of the community. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fpa...@apache.org> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic ( > >>>>>>>>>>> > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), > >>>>> I > >>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find support > for > >>>>>> sla, > >>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the > >>>>> community > >>>>>>>> as, > >>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial > >>>>>>>>>>> support > >>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the > >>>>>>>>>>> adoption > >>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users > >>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move > >>>>> forward, I > >>>>>>>>>> just > >>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by > >>>>>>>>>>> providing a > >>>>>> new > >>>>>>>>>> PR > >>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you can > reply > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> this > >>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company at the > >>>>> first > >>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of the > >>>>> service > >>>>>>>>>> offer > >>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and > >>>>>> informational > >>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> regards, > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> François > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> François > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> François > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >
