Hi Romain, Yes, you may be right that it's either everybody or nobody. Coming up with any levels of entry is going to raise questions as we see :). I wasn't aware that my idea might be against ASF guidelines as it is somewhat based on its own sponsorship page ( https://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsors). Anyway, my point is moot if it's not allowed by those guidelines.
Regarding your original suggestion, I'm not against it, although I am worried about that it might get out of hand, however I also see that we don't really have any means to anticipate if it does or not, so it might be that the only way is to try it out if the community leans toward it. Thanks, Viktor On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 4:15 PM Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibu...@apache.org> wrote: > Hi Viktor, > > Having a support page is ASF friendly and quite common for the reasons > mentionned in the ticket and these threads and aim at helping end users. > > I saw that Matthias was afraid of the maintenance of such a page but I > guess it costs nothing to merge François PR - or alike, accept the coming > proposals for a few months and see after some period if it stays something > moving a lot and if it becomes something the community can't handle - other > projects kind of show it is not the case and some projects are way more > used and supported than Kafka in terms of potential entries count - please > don't take it as an offense it is just an history and scope point - so > means they would have had the issue which is not what happent AFAIK. > > However please note that trying to promote cloudera, for example, because > it contributes often to Kafka and reject Yupiik because it just takes the > support side for now would be quite unfair on one side and strictly > speaking this would be against ASF policy (you can reread > https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct for example) so the > question is quite simple for me: it is everybody or nobody and if you pick > nobody, do you accept to make it harder for users to embrace Kafka (even if > it would be ok from an ASF standpoint, the spirit would be more to enable > that strictly speaking cause support is just part of the real life of such > a complex project). I really take the "can be hard to handle" point > seriously but trying that for 6 months or so does not cost much to the > community and if at the end it helps some users it is only a win IMHO. > > So overall my 2cts would be to try based on other projects model and if it > turns out Kafka is specific and it does not work for any reason, the page > can be dropped quite easily. > > Wdyt? > > Best, > > On 2024/01/15 14:35:15 Viktor Somogyi-Vass wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I think that making and updating such a list implies tricky questions > that > > we have to deal with. Good examples were given by Matthias, that was my > > first thought as well before reading his response. > > > > On the other hand I think it would be a good alternative to create a list > > of companies that are either regular or meaningful contributors to the > > project, provide other help such as testing infra or sponsors of the > > project in other ways. This may present those companies who provide > support > > too and I think it'd be some appreciation as well to display them. > > > > What do you all think? > > > > Best, > > Viktor > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2024 at 10:08 AM Francois Papon < > > francois.pa...@openobject.fr> wrote: > > > > > Hi Tison, > > > > > > Publishing a dedicated website for that can be a good idea, however if > > > the link of the website could not be mention in the official Apache > > > Kafka website I'm afraid that it will not be relevant. > > > > > > BTW, as I understand after all the feedback of the Apache Kafka PMC and > > > community, my proposal is not a good idea for the project so I will > > > close the PR. > > > > > > Thanks all for the feedback. > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > François > > > > > > On 14/01/2024 12:56, tison wrote: > > > > FWIW - even if it's rejected by the Kafka PMC, you can maintain your > > > > own page for such information and provide your personal comments on > > > > them. If the object is to provide information and help users to make > > > > decisions, it should help. Although you should do the SEO by > yourself, > > > > if the information is somehow neutral and valuable, you can ask the > > > > @apachekafka Twitter (X) account to propagate it and provide a blog > > > > for Kafka blogs. > > > > > > > > This is the common way how third-party "evangelist" producing content > > > > and get it promoted. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > tison. > > > > > > > > Matthias J. Sax <mj...@apache.org> 于2024年1月13日周六 07:35写道： > > > >> François, > > > >> > > > >> thanks for starting this initiative. Personally, I don't think it's > > > >> necessarily harmful for the project to add such a new page, > however, I > > > >> share the same concerns others raised already. > > > >> > > > >> I understand your motivation that people had issues finding > commercial > > > >> support, but I am not sure we can address this issue that way. I am > also > > > >> "worried" (for the lack of a better word) that the page might become > > > >> long an unwieldy. In the end, any freelancer/consultant offering > Kafka > > > >> services would be able to get on the page, so we might get hundreds > of > > > >> entries, what also makes it impossible for users to find what they > are > > > >> looking for. Also, the services of different companies might vary > > > >> drastically; should users read all these descriptions? I can also > > > >> imagine that some companies offer their services only in some > > > >> countries/regions making it even harder for user to find what they > are > > > >> looking for? > > > >> > > > >> Overall, it sounds more like a search optimization problem, and > thus it > > > >> seems out-of-scope what we can solve. As I said, I am not strictly > > > >> against it, but I just don't see much value either. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> -Matthias > > > >> > > > >> On 1/11/24 12:55 PM, Francois Papon wrote: > > > >>> Hi Justine, > > > >>> > > > >>> You're right, Kafka is a part of my business (training, consulting, > > > >>> architecture design, sla...) and most of the time, users/customers > said > > > >>> that it was hard for them to find a commercial support (in France > for > > > my > > > >>> case) after searching on the Kafka website (Google didn't help > them). > > > >>> > > > >>> As an ASF member and PMC of several ASF projects, I know that this > kind > > > >>> of page exist so this is why I made this proposal for the Kafka > project > > > >>> because I really think that it can help users. > > > >>> > > > >>> As you suggest, I can submit a PR to be added on the "powered by" > page. > > > >>> > > > >>> Thanks, > > > >>> > > > >>> François > > > >>> > > > >>> On 11/01/2024 21:00, Justine Olshan wrote: > > > >>>> Hey François, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> My point was that the companies on that page use kafka as part of > > > their > > > >>>> business. If you use Kafka as part of your business feel free to > > > submit a > > > >>>> PR to be added. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> I second Chris's point that other projects are not enough to > require > > > >>>> Kafka > > > >>>> having such a support page. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Justine > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 11:57 AM Chris Egerton < > > > fearthecel...@gmail.com> > > > >>>> wrote: > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> Hi François, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Is it an official policy of the ASF that projects provide a > listing > > > of > > > >>>>> commercial support options for themselves? I understand that > other > > > >>>>> projects > > > >>>>> have chosen to provide one, but this doesn't necessarily imply > that > > > all > > > >>>>> projects should do the same, and I can't say I find this point > very > > > >>>>> convincing as a rebuttal to some of the good-faith concerns > raised by > > > >>>>> the > > > >>>>> PMC and members of the community so far. However, if there's an > > > official > > > >>>>> ASF stance on this topic, then I acknowledge that Apache Kafka > should > > > >>>>> align > > > >>>>> with it. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Best, > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Chris > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 14:50 fpapon <fpa...@apache.org> wrote: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>>> Hi Justine, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I'm not sure to see the difference between "happy users" and > vendors > > > >>>>>> that advertise their products in some of the company list in the > > > >>>>>> "powered by" page. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> Btw, my initial purpose of my proposal was to help user to find > > > support > > > >>>>>> for production stuff rather than searching in google. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I don't think this is a bad thing because this is something that > > > >>>>>> already > > > >>>>>> exist in many ASF projects like: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> https://hop.apache.org/community/commercial/ > > > >>>>>> https://struts.apache.org/commercial-support.html > > > >>>>>> https://directory.apache.org/commercial-support.html > > > >>>>>> https://tomee.apache.org/commercial-support.html > > > >>>>>> https://plc4x.apache.org/users/commercial-support.html > > > >>>>>> https://camel.apache.org/community/support/ > > > >>>>>> https://openmeetings.apache.org/commercial-support.html > > > >>>>>> https://guacamole.apache.org/support/ > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/HADOOP2/Distributions+and+Commercial+Support > > > >>>>> > > > > https://activemq.apache.org/supporthttps://karaf.apache.org/community.html > > > >>>>>> https://netbeans.apache.org/front/main/help/commercial-support/ > > > >>>>>> https://royale.apache.org/royale-commercial-support/ > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> https://karaf.apache.org/community.html > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> As I understand for now, the channel for users to find > production > > > >>>>>> support is: > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> - The mailing list (u...@kafka.apache.org / > d...@kafka.apache.org) > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> - The official #kafka ASF Slack channel (may be we can add it > on > > > the > > > >>>>>> website because I didn't find it in the website => > > > >>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/contact) > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> - Search in google for commercial support only > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> I can update my PR to mention only the 3 points above for the > "get > > > >>>>>> support" page if people think that having a support page make > sense. > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> regards, > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> François > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> On 11/01/2024 19:34, Justine Olshan wrote: > > > >>>>>>> I think there is a difference between the "Powered by" page > and a > > > page > > > >>>>>> for > > > >>>>>>> vendors to advertise their products and services. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> The idea is that the companies on that page are "powered by" > Kafka. > > > >>>>> They > > > >>>>>>> serve as examples of happy users of Kafka. > > > >>>>>>> I don't think it is meant only as a place just for those > companies > > > to > > > >>>>>>> advertise. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I'm a little confused by > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support > section in > > > >>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> If you plan to submit for this page, please include a > description > > > on > > > >>>>> how > > > >>>>>>> your company uses Kafka. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> I'm happy to hear other folks' opinions on this page as well. > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> Thanks, > > > >>>>>>> Justine > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:57 AM fpapon <fpa...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > >>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> Hi, > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> About the vendors list and neutrality, what is the policy of > the > > > >>>>>>>> "Powered by" page? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> https://kafka.apache.org/powered-by > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> We can see company with logo, some are talking about their > product > > > >>>>>>>> (Agoora), some are offering services (Instaclustr, Aiven), > and we > > > can > > > >>>>>>>> also see some that just put their logo and a link to their > website > > > >>>>>>>> without any explanation (GoldmanSachs). > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> So as I understand and after reading the text in the footer of > > > this > > > >>>>>>>> page, every company can add themselves by providing a PR > right? > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> "Want to appear on this page? > > > >>>>>>>> Submit a pull request or send a quick description of your > > > >>>>>>>> organization > > > >>>>>>>> and usage to the mailing list and we'll add you." > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> In this case, I'm ok to say that the commercial support > section in > > > >>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>> "Get support" is no need as we can use this page. > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> regards, > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> François > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> On 10/01/2024 19:03, Kenneth Eversole wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>> I agree with Divji here and to be more pointed. I worry that > if > > > >>>>>>>>> we go > > > >>>>>>>> down > > > >>>>>>>>> the path of adding vendors to a list it comes off as > supporting > > > >>>>>>>>> their > > > >>>>>>>>> product, not to mention could be a huge security risk for > novice > > > >>>>>> users. I > > > >>>>>>>>> would rather this be a callout to other purely open source > > > tooling, > > > >>>>>> such > > > >>>>>>>> as > > > >>>>>>>>> cruise control. > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> Divji brings up good question > > > >>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the > users of > > > >>>>>> Apache > > > >>>>>>>>> Kafka? > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> I think the community would be a better service to have a > more > > > >>>>>>>> synchronous > > > >>>>>>>>> line of communication such as Slack/Discord and we call that > out > > > >>>>> here. > > > >>>>>> It > > > >>>>>>>>> would be more inline with other major open source projects. > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> --- > > > >>>>>>>>> Kenneth Eversole > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 10:30 AM Divij Vaidya < > > > >>>>> divijvaidy...@gmail.com > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> I don't see a need for this. What additional information > does > > > this > > > >>>>>>>> provide > > > >>>>>>>>>> over what can be found via a quick google search? > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> My primary concern is that we are getting in the business of > > > >>>>>>>>>> listing > > > >>>>>>>>>> vendors in the project site which brings it's own > complications > > > >>>>>> without > > > >>>>>>>>>> adding much additional value for users. In the spirit of > being > > > >>>>> vendor > > > >>>>>>>>>> neutral, I would try to avoid this as much as possible. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> So, my question to you is: > > > >>>>>>>>>> 1. What value does additional of this page bring to the > users of > > > >>>>>> Apache > > > >>>>>>>>>> Kafka? > > > >>>>>>>>>> 2. When a new PR is submitted to add a vendor, what > criteria do > > > we > > > >>>>>> have > > > >>>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>> decide whether to add them or not? If we keep a blanket > > > criteria of > > > >>>>>>>>>> accepting all PRs, then we may end up in a situation where > the > > > >>>>>>>>>> llink > > > >>>>>>>>>> redirects to a phishing page or nefarious website. Hence, we > > > might > > > >>>>>> have > > > >>>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>> at least perform some basic due diligence which adds > overhead to > > > >>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>> resources of the community. > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>>> Divij Vaidya > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 5:00 PM fpapon <fpa...@apache.org> > > > wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> After starting a first thread on this topic ( > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > https://lists.apache.org/thread/kkox33rhtjcdr5zztq3lzj7c5s7k9wsr), > > > >>>>> I > > > >>>>>>>>>>> would like to propose a PR: > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/kafka-site/pull/577 > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> The purpose of this proposal is to help users to find > support > > > for > > > >>>>>> sla, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> training, consulting...whatever that is not provide by the > > > >>>>> community > > > >>>>>>>> as, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> like we can already see in many ASF projects, no commercial > > > >>>>>>>>>>> support > > > >>>>>> is > > > >>>>>>>>>>> provided by the foundation. I think it could help with the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> adoption > > > >>>>>> and > > > >>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> growth of the project because the users > > > >>>>>>>>>>> need commercial support for production issues. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> If the community is agree about this idea and want to move > > > >>>>> forward, I > > > >>>>>>>>>> just > > > >>>>>>>>>>> add one company in the PR but everybody can add some by > > > >>>>>>>>>>> providing a > > > >>>>>> new > > > >>>>>>>>>> PR > > > >>>>>>>>>>> to complete the list. If people want me to add other you > can > > > reply > > > >>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>> this > > > >>>>>>>>>>> thread because it will be better to have several company > at the > > > >>>>> first > > > >>>>>>>>>>> publication of the page. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Just provide the company-name and a short description of > the > > > >>>>> service > > > >>>>>>>>>> offer > > > >>>>>>>>>>> around Apache Kafka. The information must be factual and > > > >>>>>> informational > > > >>>>>>>> in > > > >>>>>>>>>>> nature and not be a marketing statement. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> regards, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> François > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>> François > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > >>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>> François > > > >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > > >
