Hi, to follow up here.
We had a docker-compose.yml inside of the project's root directory to build (and even debug) TomEE during a build since 2017, but it was outdated and broken with TomEE 9+. I just fixed it for TomEE 10, so if anyone wants to give it a try to build TomEE 10 from source, he/she can just use the provided docker-compose file. The "build-quick" won't run unit tests but creates the binaries. Feel free to give it a try, Bart. Best Richard Am Mittwoch, dem 20.03.2024 um 16:33 -0500 schrieb David Blevins: > Hi Bart, > > Really, thank you for even trying to help at all. You are > remarkable. > > The docker idea could help, but that would still involve someone with > time to create it. Side note, I know Richard has put some effort > into the build and ensuring it can work in Intellij, so things might > be better for you now. Even with the build perfect, we'd still need > someone with the time to provide development guidance and merge PRs. > > I had an idea on the sponsoring concept. We do have 34 committers > that have been added over the last 24 years. Maybe we get sponsor > one of them to help onboard new contributors like yourself in their > evening hours for a few weeks. We could use the Github Sponsor path > to get them the funding and I'd match whatever you put up. We put > some formality on it, like specific dates where online sessions would > happen (say one hour in the evening per week, for specific date > range) and I can use my platform to advertise it. Then we go through > the list of people who have showed interest in helping in the last > few years and try to get them to attend and see what magic we can > make happen. > > Then we'd have someone who knows the codebase a bit, can fix build > issues, review and merge PRs, etc. and perhaps we can turn some > hopeful contributors into committers. > > The project has more or less "died" three times over the last 24 > years and the challenge each time was getting enough people enabled > to help others. The previous times I basically did it myself with > brute force and huge investments of time and it'd get things running > again for a few years. The last time was 2007. We now have Github > Sponsors, Twitter and way more eyes on the project; advantages that > weren't there before. > > If it works we could maybe do it a few times and keep pumping up the > project and related projects. The real truth behind this is our > dependent projects are in the same boat: CXF, Johnzon, OpenWebBeans, > BatchEE, BVal, etc. All the projects mentioned are actually the only > other implementation of the spec in the industry and sadly, TomEE is > the only Jakarta EE implementation that ships them. All other > vendors combined pool their resources on just the Eclipse > implementations of those specs, which means they set a pace that > doesn't reflect actual diversity and is why we are always behind; if > you actually do what standards are for (implementation choice, > innovation, competition) you have a disadvantage in this market as > you're the only one doing it which is just backwards. We could > potentially have a big impact if we can get a pattern that works to > create committers. > > I've got a couple people in mind who might like to do such a thing. > Could be worth a try at least once. > > Thoughts? > > > -David > > > On Mar 20, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen > > <bart_van_leeu...@netage.nl> wrote: > > > > Hi David, > > > > thank you again for the extensive email, I see the 'deadlock' or > > 'race > > condition' in supporting financially, and one could indeed argue > > that > > might not be the way to go. > > > > I would certainly be interested in having 'Tomee development for > > dummies' > > session or something. > > I haven't looked at the development environment in a while so I > > might say > > something that is already covered. > > My first attempt at compiling Tomee stranded in the build > > environment, > > would a docker image with a development environment be feasible? > > > > > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards > > Bart van Leeuwen > > > > > > > > From: "David Blevins" <david.blev...@gmail.com> > > To: users@tomee.apache.org > > Date: 20-03-2024 01:20 > > Subject: Re: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? > > (was Re: > > Will Tomee be discontinued ?) > > > > > > > > Hi Bart, > > > > If you have the ability to contribute at work we should make that > > plan A > > and do our best with that despite the challenge it will be for > > everyone. > > It has the most potential benefit to the project and you long term. > > > > The trick with financial support is nothing short of enough to > > cover a > > salary really helps. My experience is no one has that kind of > > budget to > > spare and get nothing but open source in return. You usually need > > a few > > supporters to cover one person. They typically get something in > > return > > (like 24x7 support) and that often means the person who gets > > brought on > > now has a huge learning curve like you would have, but also a list > > of > > tickets to solve before they can spend time on oss, so they still > > end up > > with the "I have day job" problem. Only now it's a day and night > > job > > (24x7 support), so the evenings you had to contribute are now > > gone. That > > is pretty much the current situation with the original contributors > > like > > myself. > > > > Contributing time directly has its own challenges. A big one is > > that once > > a project gets so low in people with time, there is no one > > available to > > help new potential contributors. We have 34 committers, but we're > > lucky > > to see 3. It's a big project with dependences that are quite large > > themselves and the time to teach all of that is nearly equivalent > > to the > > time for the other person to learn it. By the time people learn > > it, they > > often move on to other jobs and often the value the project got is > > low for > > the time spent. All that said, if you or I had unlimited resources > > this > > would still be the case. We'd have a bunch of newly hired people > > who > > don't know what to do and only a small number of (very overworked) > > people > > to enable them. It would still be hard for everyone. > > > > The big win would be you could be a positive example: we use it, so > > we > > contribute. People need to see this. We need to encourage people > > to > > follow that example. > > > > It is possible to start small and slowly work towards bigger > > things. It > > does take constant guidance and someone with time to help and that > > is the > > big trick. People frequently don't get too far and that's another > > challenge and a real opportunity cost if it doesn't work. We can > > greatly > > lower that risk if we can get a few people like you together and > > teach a > > handful of people how to contribute at once. > > > > Maybe if we can get a few others signed up, we can setup some kind > > of > > semi-regular zoom meetings to help people find a way in. You could > > lean > > on each other as you go. This greatly helps in feeling safe asking > > "stupid" questions as you know others who need the answer. Then > > there are > > more people to help others get in and we start to get back on our > > feet > > again. > > > > Are there others in Bert's position who have employer support to > > contribute but aren't sure where to start? > > > > > > -David > > > > > > > On Mar 19, 2024, at 3:38 AM, Bart van Leeuwen > > <bart_van_leeu...@netage.nl> wrote: > > > > > > Hi David, > > > > > > Thank you for your extensive and personal email. It is good to > > > hear the > > > back story of these projects now and then. > > > > > > I have to admit I'm in the same boat as Vicente, I would like to > > > contribute, I can commit work time, but the sheer volume of the > > > project > > is > > > intimidating at least and makes it hard to get started. > > > So I would be willing to support development financially, > > > preferably in > > a > > > way that gets most of the money to the people who do the work, or > > > the > > ones > > > that pay their paycheck. > > > > > > That however is not solving the real problem, the lack of > > > commiters to > > the > > > project. Ideally there would be a way for lesser gods, like > > > myself, to > > > take small bites of the project, instead of eating the whole > > > elephant. > > > The question obviously is, is that even possible? > > > > > > Met Vriendelijke Groet / With Kind Regards > > > Bart van Leeuwen > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "David Blevins" <david.blev...@gmail.com> > > > To: users@tomee.apache.org > > > Date: 19-03-2024 03:20 > > > Subject: Question: Can I donate to an Apache project? (was > > > Re: > > Will > > > Tomee be discontinued ?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2024, at 9:02 AM, Vicente Rossello > > > > <cocorosse...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I've tried a few times to do some contributions to the project, > > > > but > > > testing > > > > the TCK or solving almost any issue is really hard, and very > > > > far from > > > what > > > > I'm used to do in my daily work. And now I don't have much > > > > time... > > > family > > > > and work consumes almost all my time. > > > > > > > > I really find this project relevant in the jakarta EE and I > > > > would love > > > to > > > > see it keep going. What I can do is to make some donations. I > > > > guess > > that > > > > the donations should go to apache, my question is can I fund > > > > this > > > specific > > > > project? Also I see that donations are tax deductible in the > > > > US, does > > > > anyone know if this is possible in Spain (or even any country > > > > in > > > Europe)? > > > > > > First, I just want to say on a personal level, I find your email > > touching. > > > Most people only ask what can I get and not what can I give. The > > > world > > > needs more people like you. > > > > > > Donations to Apache aren't used to fund development of Apache > > > projects. > > > The foundation in terms of being a corporation is actually > > > incredibly > > > small; less than 10 employees and contractors combined. The > > > funding > > > Apache gets goes to that very tiny crew and covers > > > infrastructure, > > legal, > > > the conferences Apache coordinates and some limited marketing. > > > > > > Everything else including the board of directors are all > > > volunteers. > > > > > > What that means is there is no way for you to sponsor "the > > > project", you > > > > > would have to single out individuals and sponsor them directly. > > > I've > > used > > > Github sponsors to sponsor a few of the people I saw > > > contributing, such > > as > > > Daniel Dias, Richard Zowalla and Thomas Andraschko. They take > > > 10% and > > and > > > handle tax. > > > > > > I agree with your perspective on not wanting to sacrifice family > > > time > > for > > > open source. Unfortunately it is the main source of contribution > > > for > > most > > > Apache projects and the main reason people burn out and stop > > contributing. > > > > > > I used to encourage people to contribute in their spare time and > > > did so > > > myself. TomEE 1.0 to 1.5 were created and shipped by people > > > working in > > > their spare time. We would frequently use vacation time to hack > > > on open > > > > > source together, cut releases, etc. The 1.5 release was actually > > > cut > > > while Jean-Louis was in the hospital while his wife was giving > > > birth to > > > their second kid and I was on vacation helping. On my side I > > > ended up > > > having to quit my job in order to get permission to work on TomEE > > > in my > > > spare time after having gotten in some hot water for taking a > > > week off > > to > > > cut the 1.0. I later learned Jonathan Gallimore had to apply > > > similar > > > pressure to his employer to get the permission to also work in > > > his spare > > > > > time. > > > > > > There was some occasional employer support. Atos/Worldline was > > supportive > > > as they used OpenEJB and had a smart manager, Jean-Francois > > > James, that > > > saw benefit in allowing some contribution on company time when > > > they had > > a > > > specific need (this is where Jean-Louis Monteiro, Romain Manni- > > > Bucau > > > worked). IBM was very supportive of me in the 2005 - 2010 range > > > when > > > Geronimo was active as long as it benefit Geronimo and my > > > contributions > > > did not compete with Geronimo (which of course they did and that > > > ultimately meant I had to work on my spare time most of the > > > time). > > > > > > That's the very delicate balance that built TomEE. > > > > > > I no longer encourage individuals to sacrifice personal/family > > > time to > > > work on Open Source projects, I don't feel it is ethical > > > anymore. I > > admit > > > that I also do not find it ethical for you as an individual to > > > sponsor > > > other individuals. It's that the majority of contribution comes > > > from > > > individuals contributing in their family time (not going to call > > > it > > > "spare" time), while the majority of consumers are for profit > > companies. > > > > > > I can't advise people to use their remaining time after work to > > contribute > > > to Open Source. This primarily benefits the employer using the > > > software > > > > > and comes at the expense to your family. Nor can I advise people > > > to use > > > > > the money they earned working for their employer to sponsor an > > individual > > > contributor. Yes, the contributor benefits, but there's no > > > denying > > you're > > > essentially helping cover the cost of the open source software > > > your > > > employer uses and using money your family needs to do it. > > > > > > When a company moves onto an open source project to save money > > > and that > > > project is only possible because of individual contributors, it > > > is > > > essentially the families of those contributors who enabled that > > > savings. > > > > > Essentially cost has been shifted from the employer to employees > > > and > > their > > > families. > > > > > > Unless of course the companies and for-profit consumers also > > > contribute. > > > > > Then I no longer have any issue. Then it's as open source is > > > mean to to > > > > > be: everyone who uses also contributes. > > > > > > Open source is like stone soup. It's a shared cost model. > > > Everyone > > > shares the cost by contributing a little and everyone eats. > > > Without > > that, > > > however, it isn't a beautiful story where everyone shares and > > > everyone > > > eats. It becomes a story where the townfolk all give their last > > > carrots > > > > > and potatoes to make soup for the wealthy. > > > > > > None of this is because people are evil, just that open source is > > > very > > new > > > and our relationship to it is very young. > > > > > > The true benefit of open source is you can shift from high-cost > > > proprietary software while not having to do everything in house > > > either. > > > You can share that cost with others, which will be a fraction of > > > what > > you > > > all paid collectively. The true benefit of an Apache open source > > project > > > is that as a contributor, your relationship to other contributors > > > is > > equal > > > and fair and all matters are voted and have board oversight to > > > correct > > if > > > things become unfair. > > > > > > Those of you using TomEE at work should have a conversation with > > > your > > > manager so you can all talk and see what you can bring to the > > > project. > > If > > > you are unsure how to have that conversation, we can talk about > > > it. I'm > > > > > ok to help people offline as long as you're willing to pay it > > > forward > > and > > > help others with this like I helped you. > > > > > > I don't recommend taking time/money away from family. > > > > > > > > > -David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >