On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 17:54, Stuart Jansen wrote: > This is important to another facet of faith: faith is power. But it > isn't the greatest power, and it isn't even power in and of itself. When > Christ created the worlds he couldn't have faith, he had knowledge. He > was in the presence of God who is the source of power. Faith does not > make us powerful. We are merely granted the privilege of calling on the > power of God.
<deep LDS doctrine alert> The following is my understanding, and I welcome a correction, since this particular topic is important to me and I do wish to understand it better. One minor correction on faith. When Christ created the world he absolutely did have faith. He also had knowledge. But without the faith, the knowledge would have done him no good at all. I think most of us either misread or misunderstand Alma 32 about faith vs. knowledge at some point in our lives. Knowledge does not eliminate faith or the need for faith, but you don't have to have all knowledge to have faith. Christ knew, for example, that under certain conditions, the things of creations are brought about (matter combining etc). However it was by faith that he brought them about. The Pearl of Great Price talks about how Christ spoke and the matter obeyed. That is what faith is about. In a simplistic way, faith could be described as the power that actuates knowledge (which doesn't have to be our knowledge at first). God is God because of faith. To bring in some contrast, Satan also has knowledge of many of the same things that God knows. However because he keeps not eternal laws, and has not faith (he cannot have faith because he has completely and utterly damned himself forever and ever), ultimately matter and the things of creation will not obey him. They will obey God, because he follows eternal laws and he exercises perfect faith (and thus reveals the link between faith and obedience). Therefore I can argue that faith is power, and in fact it is the greatest power. The Lectures on Faith (don't have the exact reference) state that faith is the power by which God framed the earth. Of course we also at this point have to talk about priesthood, by simple definition is the authority given to act in God's name. The power that makes the Priesthood effective is faith. My final point is at some point perfect knowledge implies perfect faith and vice versa. Perhaps you could argue that perfect faith is perfect knowledge. </deep LDS doctrine> <snip> I find your comments very insightful and thank you for them. Perhaps we do need another list for this type of thing, except that I fear it would turn into a sort of Sunstone-type forum where we debate without authority. > In the past I have complained about the presence of the proxy. When I > found out for certain that it is kept there by decision of an Apostle, I > stopped complaining. I still disagree with some details of how it is > implemented by the imperfect men made responsible for it, but I don't > question its appropriateness. The proxy is actually there mainly at the request of the deans. Since it is a "good thing" the Apostles also support it and would oppose not having one. Ultimately the Board of directors (which Is the first presidency and the 12) made the decision to ask OIT to implement it, which they actually only have turned on for am minority of campus. I think that one would still be right to question the OIT implementation of it, because I assure you that most of OIT's operations are not inspired as one would want to have or believe. > > I'm not simply letting someone else do my thinking for me. I'm > recognizing the authority of a person placed in that position by God. (I > have alot less respect for anyone who has been hired instead of called > and set apart. Even if they were hired by a representative of God.) > > No one should take Sasha's opinion lightly. I know him, he is a good > person. His reasoning was even more clearly stated by Hyrum. Time is > precious, and too many of us our guilty of wasting it. Sasha said "you > cannot heal by patching." Hyrum put it more clearly: covering up swear > words does not correct a story that send a fundamentally wrong message. > It is amazing how many subtle ways we are told that there are no > incorrect relationships, that woman are objects, that consumerism leads > to happiness, etc. Avoiding all media with even a blush of evil is one > way to avoid these inappropriate influences. > > Now that doesn't mean I agree with Sasha. I think EDL serves a useful > purpose. Two of the most useful influential books I've read are _The > Fountainhead_ and _Atlas Shrugged_. Like the apocrypha, with the proper > perspective they contain a useful message. Sadly, I can't recommend them > to anyone because of certain content, the removal of which wouldn't > weaken the story at all, but I wish I could. Before anyone jumps up an > points out that we don't use the apocrypha for that reason, I'd point > out that we also don't avoid it. Likewise, we continue to publish the > Bible even though it contains Song of Solomon. > > Like all of us, Sasha, Hyrum, and Gary are developing faith and wisdom. > We should not ridicule them or act superior. We should consider their > opinion and strive to live correctly. How they walk, as long as they are > on the right path, doesn't matter. It might just be that they are closer > to the truth than we are. Obligatory bottom post comment: amen. And now I rest for a day, and shall not post anything for the next 24 hours. :) Michael -- Michael Torrie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ____________________ BYU Unix Users Group http://uug.byu.edu/ ___________________________________________________________________ List Info: http://uug.byu.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/uug-list
