On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 20:57, Michael Halcrow wrote: > If anything, the responses to this message have revealed to me how > little difference there is any more between the Democratic and the > Republican parties as far as economic policy go (assuming that most of > the responses came from Utah Republicans). (Yes, that's a troll.)
Well I do remember from my Econ 110 class that yes manipulations by governments in monetary and fiscal policies generally do not have the desired effect and most often amplify or make things worse. However there was nothing taught in Econ 110, nor have I ever seen any evidence that a free market will actually completely self-adjust on a macro or micro scale. If anything we seem to be seeing the opposite. I take it from your arguments that you find NASA and the entire space program a complete waste of money. Obviously since private industry hasn't been able to do it yet that it's not worth doing. And clearly you don't want your tax dollars wasted on any of these scientific ventures. In many cases, including iProvo, this investment will spur a lot of private business and generate a lot of revenue, increasing the local economy. During the moon shots which were hideously expensive, there were arguments that such money should be directed to more worthwhile causes right here on the ground such as poverty. However it turned out that for every dollar spent on the space program the economy was benefited on average by about 7 dollars. It can be argued that something similar happens here. Local general contractors, etc. > > They are equally prideful in their assumptions that they are smart > enough to manipulate the free market economy for an optimal result. > It's the simplistic "Oh, look - there's something we all > want^H^H^H^Hneed! The free market hasn't filled in the gaps yet, so > something must be wrong. Well, let's hurry it up, then! Just tax > everyone and roll out our own solution to the 'problem'!" It looks > great on politicians' dossiers. It gives everyone a good feeling that > they're "doing something." Money disappears into the vortex of > government run amok, and the cycle continues... Your humility does help a bit here to offset our pride. Money disappears yes, but where does it disappear to? The moon? Other countries? Sometimes, maybe. But by enlarge public spending goes straight into the economy that made it possible. Corrupt governments will often pad the pockets of their friends which reduces the overall positive effect on the economy. > > Telecommunications infrastructure does not deserve public utility > status. With the advent of wireless technology, there is no real > barrier to the free market providing a high-speed digital network > solution; at this point, providers need to figure out now how to get > the right service to the people at the right price. The fact that it > is not available for you means that it *costs too much* for the market > to bear. By invoking the government to create it for you, you are > deciding that if your community will not pay for it out of their own > free will and choice, at the current market price, they will instead > be forced to pay for it out of what is garnished from their paychecks. > This is selfish. You do not have some kind of fundamental, God-given > right to high speed Internet access to your house in the boonies. And > I am certainly not obligated to help subsidize such a connection out > to your house. I doubt that without iProvo taxes will decrease any. Taxes are considered sunk costs to most citizens and therefore we should be trying to maximize our utility that governments provide because of our taxes. Really we could argue to the extreme of your argument and state that the government really shouldn't collect any taxes at all and that all things should be left up to where ever the winds of the free market take you. Private police, private prisons, private roads. Clearly the founding fathers considered anarchy to not be an acceptable form of political solvency. Besides if we went with a true free market with no government controls whatsoever, monopolies will form. Think about it. If we had no government at all (and hence no law enforcement according to the will of the majority), there is nothing to stop someone from using any means at this disposal to first corner the market on a service (say roads) by eliminating his competition (hit man), and then forces tolls for his service on you (not based on any real market forces since there is no competition), would that be acceptable to you? As for network connectivity not being essential, you are correct to a point. However more and more because of business dependence deems computer networks to be more and more an essential service. By your logic I an argue that the sewer system isn't really an essential service either. I mean you an always use the bushes, right. People lived for years without this service and without electricity too. I can tell you that here at BYU, the computer networks are considered essential, prioritized slightly behind electrical power. > > I would be bothered a lot more by iProvo if I weren't Texan. :-) But > as they say, injustice anywhere... > > The free market will produce a better solution than the government > ever can, especially for telecommunications infrastructures. If the > better solution is that this high-speed network has to wait a few > years, then that is better than siphoning funds out of the economy now > to dump into another pork barrel project. We have yet to see this. > > Those in power will argue about how this new infrastructure will draw > new business into the region and boost the economy. The boost to the > economy can *never* match the expense dumped into running fiber optic > everywhere. Of course, this is convenient for the politicians > involved, since they only need to demonstrate a correlation between > iProvo and an increase in business, and they win - because, as > everyone knows, correlation equals causation! How do you know? Can you quantify this disparity between investment and return on investment? I agree that this type of investment won't have near the effect on the economy that other things could have. Anyway. I remain unconvinced that iProvo is a bad thing. And I do remember my history and my Econ 110 class. I also remember that I learned a lot of interesting economic theories, some of which appear to be more relevant than others (such as Adam Smith's theories). Michael > > In reality, the very best thing that Provo could do for the economy is > to save the money and reduce taxes accordingly, so the businesses and > citizens can decide for themselves what they do and do not want to > spend their hard-earned money on. > > A high-speed network is *not* a basic necessity for human survival, > like water (some of you talk as if you think this network just *has* > to exist, one way or another; you need a serious shift in > perspective). The government has *no* business taxing its citizens to > provide it. If there is currently a monopoly situation, fine - you > need to accept that the government cannot effectively fix it. Every > time it tries, it is always too little, too late. Given a little time > and some advances in technology, the free market will find a solution. > It always does. > > The solution to AT&T was Sprint. The solution to Microsoft is Free > Software. I cannot say exactly what the solution to Comcast/Qwest > will be, but the market is a heck of a lot smarter than I am. The > government's job is to strray out of the way while private industry > invents the right product at the right price. > > Mike > > P.S. - I apologize for the rant, but I come from a family of economics > professors, and I get annoyed when people seem to forget things like > history and Econ 110. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ____________________ > BYU Unix Users Group > http://uug.byu.edu/ > ___________________________________________________________________ > List Info: http://uug.byu.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/uug-list -- Michael Torrie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ____________________ BYU Unix Users Group http://uug.byu.edu/ ___________________________________________________________________ List Info: http://uug.byu.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/uug-list
