You're only right on one score, Jessica: we don't agree. You seem not to have read my last post: I'm not talking about "upgrades" or "convenience" or caprice. I am talking about saving materials that are no longer legally obtainable in ANY FORMAT from disappearing. I can't be any clearer than my last post in conveying the fact that if a title becomes available and we've copied it under 108, we'll buy the commercial copy and trash the dupe.
g By the way: My philosophical and practical take on ignoring 108's in-house only stricture is my own... The law is clear, you're right, but it's also patently idiotic, unsupportable, and unenforceable. > Obviously we are never going to agree. The law is very clear about this, > you > can copy material for preservation, not circulation. It was not intended > to > allow material to be used outside of a library and it is indeed a free > pass > which does impact a rights holder. I don't doubt you that you would buy > a better copy if it became available, but I can tell you flat that rights > holders often cannot take this risk.They can't invest in releasing a good > copy if a significant portion of their market already made a DVD dub. > Suppose you are not there or a superior says , but we already own it so > you > can't buy an "upgrade" due to budget constraints. Suppose the VHS you made > a > copy of is a high end educational item and it becomes available in DVD-R > and > costs $300, you think libraries that made their own copy are going to rush > out and buy it? Your preservation copy remains available for research to > be > viewed in the library and while the scope my be very different, to me > letting it be shown to a class is the very same thing as UCLA streaming a > film to students computer. Most of the VHS only titles on your list were > released in fairly large amounts and are basically the same as out of > print > books. Are all your out of print books copied and then given to the > students for a class in which a teacher has assigned them, because showing > a > DVD dub of on out of print VHS would be the equivalent. One could find the > rights holders of many of those titles without to much work but why would > WB > say sure go ahead and dub THE CROWD because we know you will buy a copy > when we put it out next year. > Bottom line is that you are still picking and choosing which part of the > copyright law you will accept and you find this part of the copyright law > inconvenient and very stupid. That maybe understandable, but it does not > make it legal or right. > > As a side note I will mention that the same party working on NYU > "preservation' project who told librarians not to contact right holders > regarding > a rare film they owned and wanted to preserve, t also told a meeting of > archivists that you could tape a film off TV, digitize it and use it > forever > as well as buy bootleg copies or have your friend make a dub of something > they taped off TV 20 years ago so it could be digitized and used in class. > I > am not filled with confidence that this project is going to have any > respect > for rights holders. > > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:38 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote: > >> I don't know how I can make this any simplier, Jessica. >> >> If we own a tape and the the tape is no longer distributed in either DVD >> or vhs, then I'm gonna try to save it from the flames...it's what >> librarians do: we preserve the cultural record. If a faculty person >> wants to use that title to show in class, I'd be CRAZY to give him/her >> the >> rickety, at-risk original: I'm gonna loan them the copy. >> >> If the title in question becomes available, we'll buy it and scratch the >> copy. Period. >> >> This has nothing whatsoever to do with: convenience, free passes, or >> UCLA. >> >> gary >> >> >> >> > I don't see why you need a project to do that no. The EXACT reason for >> the >> > in building stricture is that this "exemption" is for >> > archival/preservation >> > purposes only, it is NOT a "free" pass to upgrade a format. You are >> right >> > about not being caught but then you probably won't get "caught" using >> an >> > illegal dupe bought on the net of film never legally released or >> unless >> > you >> > are UCLA illegally streaming whole feature films to students lap tops. >> I >> > did >> > not think protecting copyright was about getting caught. You seem to >> find >> > some elements of copyright law fair protection of rights holders OK >> but >> > not >> > others. >> > Your list for instance includes many foreign films no longer available >> in >> > the US or studio features that the studio has not yet released on DVD. >> Why >> > should a library have the right to basically 'release" their own copy >> > without contacting the rights holder? >> > I did for instance notice a number of MGM silent films on your VHS >> only >> > list. Well WB which owns those has been doing major work to get them >> out >> > on >> > DVD and the main reason they are not out yet is that they want them to >> be >> > really nice when they do come out. If all the libraries that owned >> copies >> > just made DVD dubs and put them on the shelves , WB is not going to >> have >> > the >> > market to spend time & money to release them. You will undoubtedly >> assure >> > me >> > that of course the library would rather have the nice new HD transfer >> than >> > the crummy one it made, but who is to say that it will be replaced and >> the >> > rights holder is not going to want to take the risk on the very >> fragile >> > market for silent films. >> > >> > We actually agree more than we disagree and I know you in fact make a >> > serious effort for the good fight of protecting rights holders, but it >> is >> > slippery slope from dubbing that inconvenient VHS to DVD to buying >> > bootlegs, >> > dubbing extra copies & Illegally streaming. Either you adhere to the >> > copyright laws or you don't. >> > >> > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:09 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> >> wrote: >> > >> >> Here's a scenario: two libraries are identified as owning only >> extant >> >> copies of a particular documentary or feature (on vhs) in the U.S. >> and >> >> you >> >> can't see the value of the project? >> >> >> >> By the way: The in-building only stricture of 108 is such a load of >> >> crap >> >> that I can't see ANYONE in his or her right mind adhering to it. The >> >> chances of getting busted for letting a faculty person classroom >> screen >> >> a >> >> DVD copy made under the provisions of 108 are pretty slim. >> >> >> >> g. >> >> >> >> PS: The Mellon project is going to be developing careful procedures >> for >> >> identifying those titles that clearly qualify for duplication under >> >> 108...including, if necessary, identifying and contacting rights >> >> holders. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Well then I will take the use of the word preservation more >> literally >> >> and >> >> > less archivally, however if it only involves copying those >> >> deteriorating >> >> > VHS to Digital.Since the"preservation" copy that can't leave the >> >> library >> >> > premise I honestly don't know why one would need an entire project >> for >> >> it. >> >> > Under this scenerio it would in fact be irrelevant if say 5 >> libraries >> >> > owned >> >> > the same out of print film on VHS. If it was in fact detiorating , >> >> each >> >> > makes its own "preservation" copy that does not leave the library. >> >> > >> >> > You will excuse my cynicism, but when again a major force in that >> >> project >> >> > tells librarians to NOT contact rights holders I get a little >> testy, >> >> > especially when they present the project as one of "preservation". >> >> > >> >> > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:50 PM, <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> We're talking about keeping stuff alive for use in working >> >> collections, >> >> >> Jessica. Not David Shepard territory. >> >> >> >> >> >> g. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Well re section 108. If you have that deteriorating VHS you >> can't >> >> >> replace >> >> >> > and do a transfer, it can't leave the library My argument was >> >> with >> >> >> the >> >> >> > "preservation' of said material. If you are just transferring it >> >> than >> >> >> it >> >> >> > is >> >> >> > not preservation , at least not in the way I think of it. If you >> >> are >> >> >> > actually spending money to do a preservation it would be insane >> to >> >> do >> >> >> this >> >> >> > without the copyright holders permission (if you can find them) >> and >> >> >> > checking >> >> >> > if the material exists beyond the US. Again this topic came up >> and >> >> >> > someone >> >> >> > did mention some French shorts that were held by a library, I >> know >> >> for >> >> >> a >> >> >> > fact those shorts are preserved in France and copyright >> protected >> >> so >> >> >> > spending any money on them and actually telling librarians NOT >> to >> >> >> check >> >> >> > with rights holder, which this person did is stupid and could >> lead >> >> to >> >> >> a >> >> >> > mess >> >> >> > of legal trouble assuming you ever want the "preserved" material >> to >> >> >> leave >> >> >> > the library. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > FYI the imdb link did not come up for me so I could not tell >> which >> >> >> > version. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:21 PM, >> <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> ah what would I do without my daily Jessica annoyance. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Berlin Alexanderplatz on the list is the one directed by >> Phil >> >> >> Jutzi >> >> >> >> (1931)...not the 1980 TV series (on Criterion) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The Leopard, you're right...we have the DVD and it shouldn't be >> on >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> list. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I've included IMDB listings to distinguish the versions. The >> >> Uncle >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> question is the (really horrible) one directed Géza von >> Radványi >> >> >> (France >> >> >> >> | >> >> >> >> Italy | West Germany | Yugoslavia, 1965). The Jekyll/Hyde is >> >> Herbert >> >> >> >> Brenon's 1913 version. So, you see, I DO know what I'm doing >> >> >> >> (generally) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The NYU project is very likely going to focus primarily on >> >> >> >> non-theatrical >> >> >> >> titles. Jessica: The only difference between out of >> distribution >> >> >> >> feature >> >> >> >> films and out of distribution non-theatrical works from an >> >> >> archivist's >> >> >> >> perspective is the fact that the owners of the latter almost >> >> always >> >> >> have >> >> >> >> more economic clout and wherewithall to challenge efforts to >> >> >> >> preserve/conserve. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Section 108 of the copyright law makes no distinction >> whatsoever >> >> >> between >> >> >> >> features and others. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> gary >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Gary >> >> >> >> > I looked at this list VERY quickly and there are two obvious >> >> >> mistakes. >> >> >> >> The >> >> >> >> > Leopard & Berlin Alexanderplatz are both on DVD from >> Criterion >> >> >> >> > There many others where I am not sure which version you are >> >> looking >> >> >> >> for, >> >> >> >> > say >> >> >> >> > Uncle Tom's Cabin, Dr. Jeckyl. On Genesis is that is the >> African >> >> >> >> feature, >> >> >> >> > Kino has it. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > I am less than certain how "good" the NYU project is as >> there >> >> is >> >> >> HUGE >> >> >> >> > difference between some very rare educational type films that >> >> are >> >> >> not >> >> >> >> DVD >> >> >> >> > and >> >> >> >> > studio, indie & foreign films that are not. I had my little >> >> >> >> > "disagreement" >> >> >> >> > with one the main people behind this , who told a session at >> ALA >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> one >> >> >> >> > should NOT contact the rights holder regarding the rights >> >> because >> >> >> they >> >> >> >> > might >> >> >> >> > actually say no, therefor the goal was merely to establish >> that >> >> the >> >> >> >> item >> >> >> >> > was >> >> >> >> > rare and not available and the rights were irrelevant. Not >> only >> >> is >> >> >> >> that a >> >> >> >> > deliberate attempt to violate copyright but would lead to an >> >> >> >> incredibly >> >> >> >> > stupid waste of resources. Why in the world would a US >> library >> >> >> >> "preserve" >> >> >> >> > some early french short already archival preserved in their >> home >> >> >> >> country >> >> >> >> ( >> >> >> >> > and this was actually one item that was mentioned at said ALA >> >> >> >> session). >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:35 AM, >> >> <ghand...@library.berkeley.edu> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Hi all >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I think I mentioned awhile back the interesting Mellon >> funded >> >> >> grant >> >> >> >> >> project that NYU and UCB are currently working on... It's a >> >> >> >> >> preservation >> >> >> >> >> project aimed at identifying (and dealing with) video titles >> >> that >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> >> out-of-distribution and physically at risk (particularly >> titles >> >> >> that >> >> >> >> >> have >> >> >> >> >> limited US holdings) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In any case, as part of this project, I just culled thru >> >> >> Berkeley's >> >> >> >> >> feature film holdings and identified the vhs titles that are >> >> not >> >> >> >> >> currently >> >> >> >> >> available on DVD in the US marketplace. The list, fyi, is >> >> >> attached. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A few caveats: We haven't as yet done an extensive search >> for >> >> >> >> >> legal-copy >> >> >> >> >> DVD replacements in the OP marketplace (e.g. amazon >> >> marketplace), >> >> >> nor >> >> >> >> >> have >> >> >> >> >> we searched non-US sources at this point. This is just a >> quick >> >> >> first >> >> >> >> >> pass. >> >> >> >> >> The list also does not, at the moment, include stuff such as >> >> >> shorts >> >> >> >> >> (silents, avant garde, animation etc.)that are currently >> only >> >> >> >> available >> >> >> >> >> on >> >> >> >> >> VHS anthologies. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> PS: Chris Lewis...weren't you maintaining a list of titles >> >> that >> >> >> had >> >> >> >> >> never >> >> >> >> >> been released on DVD? If so, could you pls publish the >> list. >> >> >> Merci! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary Handman >> >> >> >> >> Director >> >> >> >> >> Media Resources Center >> >> >> >> >> Moffitt Library >> >> >> >> >> UC Berkeley >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 510-643-8566 >> >> >> >> >> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu >> >> >> >> >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life >> >> itself." >> >> >> >> >> --Francois Truffaut >> >> >> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively >> >> discussion >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> issues >> >> >> >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, >> >> acquisition,bibliographic >> >> >> >> >> control, >> >> >> >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats >> in >> >> >> >> libraries >> >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve >> as >> >> an >> >> >> >> >> effective >> >> >> >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of >> >> >> >> communication >> >> >> >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video >> producers >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> >> distributors. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively >> >> discussion >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, >> >> >> >> acquisition,bibliographic >> >> >> >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video >> >> >> formats >> >> >> >> in >> >> >> >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list >> >> will >> >> >> >> serve >> >> >> >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as >> a >> >> >> >> channel >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and >> >> video >> >> >> >> > producers and distributors. >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary Handman >> >> >> >> Director >> >> >> >> Media Resources Center >> >> >> >> Moffitt Library >> >> >> >> UC Berkeley >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 510-643-8566 >> >> >> >> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu >> >> >> >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life >> itself." >> >> >> >> --Francois Truffaut >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively >> discussion >> >> of >> >> >> >> issues >> >> >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, >> acquisition,bibliographic >> >> >> >> control, >> >> >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in >> >> >> libraries >> >> >> >> and >> >> >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as >> an >> >> >> >> effective >> >> >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of >> >> >> communication >> >> >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers >> >> and >> >> >> >> distributors. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively >> discussion >> >> of >> >> >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, >> >> >> acquisition,bibliographic >> >> >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video >> >> formats >> >> >> in >> >> >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list >> will >> >> >> serve >> >> >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a >> >> >> channel >> >> >> of >> >> >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and >> video >> >> >> > producers and distributors. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary Handman >> >> >> Director >> >> >> Media Resources Center >> >> >> Moffitt Library >> >> >> UC Berkeley >> >> >> >> >> >> 510-643-8566 >> >> >> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu >> >> >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC >> >> >> >> >> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." >> >> >> --Francois Truffaut >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion >> of >> >> >> issues >> >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic >> >> >> control, >> >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in >> >> libraries >> >> >> and >> >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an >> >> >> effective >> >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of >> >> communication >> >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers >> and >> >> >> distributors. >> >> >> >> >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion >> of >> >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, >> >> acquisition,bibliographic >> >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video >> formats >> >> in >> >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will >> >> serve >> >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a >> >> channel >> >> of >> >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video >> >> > producers and distributors. >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Gary Handman >> >> Director >> >> Media Resources Center >> >> Moffitt Library >> >> UC Berkeley >> >> >> >> 510-643-8566 >> >> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu >> >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC >> >> >> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." >> >> --Francois Truffaut >> >> >> >> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of >> >> issues >> >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic >> >> control, >> >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in >> libraries >> >> and >> >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an >> >> effective >> >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of >> communication >> >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and >> >> distributors. >> >> >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of >> > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, >> acquisition,bibliographic >> > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats >> in >> > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will >> serve >> > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a >> channel >> of >> > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video >> > producers and distributors. >> > >> >> >> Gary Handman >> Director >> Media Resources Center >> Moffitt Library >> UC Berkeley >> >> 510-643-8566 >> ghand...@library.berkeley.edu >> http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC >> >> "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." >> --Francois Truffaut >> >> >> VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of >> issues >> relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic >> control, >> preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries >> and >> related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an >> effective >> working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication >> between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and >> distributors. >> > VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of > issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic > control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in > libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve > as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of > communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video > producers and distributors. > Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC "I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself." --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
