Stuart,
What is the 'correct' speed for dancing these in 1550 (not 1600)? Are
not these earlier dances (ie those closer to the danced forms) faster
than the later ones when the seemingly almost inevitable tendency for
slowing the tempos had taken effect? Was there not a seperation in
dance music in the later period between pieces to be listended to and
pieces primarily just for dancing (eg English galliard)?
The faster tempo of these earlier dances was the spur for
your suggestion that the divisions were very fast (too fast?) if played
at the same tempo as the plain.
MH
--- On Tue, 31/3/09, Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
To: "Nelson, Jocelyn" <nels...@ecu.edu>
Cc: "Daniel F Heiman" <heiman.dan...@juno.com>,
"vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 31 March, 2009, 11:06 PM
Nelson, Jocelyn wrote:
> Hi Stuart and List,
>
> I think these plus diminuees need to be played up to tempo, even
though
> it's such a challenge.
>
I've been looking at these 'plus diminuees' pieces again - (only?) in
the Premier and Tiers Livres. I'm now fairly sure that they are almost
almost all quite playable by a competent amateur - if the dances are
not too quick. I haven't a clue, for example, how fast pavans and
galliards were c1550, but provided they were something like the later
Elizabethan pavans and galliards then playing divisions with four notes
to a beat is just what might be expected. Countless dance tunes set for
the lute 'divide' into eighth note passages (and the occasional
sixteenth note burst).
The only problematic piece (in my opinion) in the Premier Livre is an
almande and it was an almande from the Tiers Livre that I cited as
virtually unplayable by a mere mortal. Both pieces use extended
sections (several bars) of continuous sixteenth notes on an already
quick pulse.
[1]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Almande.jpg
All the other dances in these two books seem to employ divisions as you
would expect. They would need a bit of work - but they are not
off-the-scale, virtuoso pieces at all. So perhaps the Almande of the
time was really quite slow. However I don't think it was. For example
the Gervaise settings of Almandes are played briskly - the tunes in
crotchets (quarter notes) are played briskly. I've really tried to play
these sixteenth-note passages in the Leroy Almandes but I really do
think they are extraordinarily, in fact, implausibly difficult
Jocelyn, you say (further on)
Stuart, which O'Dette recordings are you referring to? I have one
example: "Tablatures de Leut" Astree E7776 1990. He plays a Le Roy
bransle with a plus diminuee movement; his diminutions are very
crisp,
light and graceful.
I did mean this piece. Here's a tiny snippet of the man in full flight:
[2]http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PoD.mp3
Now that really is virtuoso playing. Quite astonishing. But a bit
surprising for a little country dance? (Like putting a jet engine on a
glider?). I can't find this piece in the Leroy guitar books -
definitely not in 1 or 3, couldn't be in 2 or 5 (songs) and not in
sober old 4. I know the tune from a lute version, though.
Thanks for all the fascinating bits of information. I'm now just
puzzled by a couple of almandes...and O'Dette's stunning but, I think,
rather odd performance.
Stuart
> When I think about tempo with these plus diminuee movements, I
take the
> dance aspect seriously. Here are a couple of my favorite quotes
from
> the author of the 16th c dance tutor, Orchesography:
>
> "I learned [a galliard] on the lute which I enjoyed seeing danced
by my
> companions as I knew how to play and sing it. And it also seemed
to me
> that the steps were well accented by those who danced it."
>
> And
>
> "Only you should be told now that some dancers divide up the
double
> that follows the two simples, and instead of the double comprising
only
> four bars with four semi-breves, they introduce eight minims or
sixteen
> crotchets, resulting in a great number of steps, passages and
> embellishments, all of which fit into the time and cadence of the
> music."
>
> Thoinot Arbeau, Orchesography (Langres: 1589; reprint, New York:
Dover,
> 1967, translated by Mary Stewart Evans, introduced and annotated
by
> Julia Sutton), pp 66 and 91 (page references are to reprint
edition).
>
> Le Roy himself seems to imply a tempo with the diminutions:
>
> . . . decke other songes or daunses, with like flowers and
ornamentes:
> in whiche he shall bee forced sometyme, for the better grace and
> pleasying of the eare, to leave out someone note of the accorde,
of
> some one of the partes: not so much for all that for necessitie,
as for
> the pleasauntness of the sounde: yea, and that with full
recompence of
> the lacke of the note, whiche shalbee omitted, by the puttyng to
of
> runnyng poinct or passage, wherein lieth all the cunnyng.
> Adrian Le Roy, A Briefe and Plaine Instruction. London:
Rowbotham,
> 1574, quoted in Adrian Le Roy, Adrian Le Roy; French Renaissance
Guitar
> Songs, Charles Wolzien, ed. (Quebec: Doberman-Yppan, 2002), 10.
> Yes, the speed is very challenging, and I think musicality is even
> harder with some of these more extreme versions. One of my
favorite
> tracks on Michael Craddock's recording is the Le Roy prelude,
which has
> that dichotomy between the long notes and the swift scalar runs.
> Craddock, with his very impressive technique, executes the fast
> passages well and all feels musical to me. But the reason why the
> Prelude works so well is that it's less metric, with lots of room
for
> the musician to build, wind down, and so on, unlike the plus
diminuee
> movements we're talking about.
> Morlaye's "La Seraphine" might make a better model if we're
wondering
> about this style, because it also goes quite abruptly from long
notes
> to fast diminutions, in this instance with a style which asks for
a
> more strict tempo, more like the dances. I personally think the
pulse
> falls apart if we slow down for the divisions, so to me this piece
> provides some evidence of a style in which a burst of short notes
in
> tempo was not unusual or "freakish" to them.
>
> Stuart, which O'Dette recordings are you referring to? I have one
> example: "Tablatures de Leut" Astree E7776 1990. He plays a Le Roy
> bransle with a plus diminuee movement; his diminutions are very
crisp,
> light and graceful. To my ears he pulls this off not only
technically
> but musically, too, in spite of the disparity between the long and
> short notes. I'd love to hear about other recordings if you know
of
> some.
>
> Sorry for such a long email. I'll end with my idea that these
> diminutions themselves are optional - whether we do them at all,
and
> which notes we use is up to the performer. If we want to be
completely
> "authentic," we should be making up our own (according to certain
> conventions regarding which phrases and beats were most ornamented
in
> particular dances). Even dance tempos have at least a bit of a
range
> with dancers, which is where we should find our dance tempos. But
> whether or not plus diminuee movements should be performed "up to
> tempo" right after a plainer version of a dance movement? I don't
think
> that's optional; any other tempo would make the dancers look very
> funny!
>
> Best,
> Jocelyn
> --
> Jocelyn Nelson, DMA
> Teaching Assistant Professor
> Early Guitar, Music History
> 506 School of Music
> East Carolina University
> 252.328.1255 office
> 252.328.6258 fax
> [1][3]nels...@ecu.edu
>
___________________________________________________________________
>
> From: Stuart Walsh <[2][4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:09:05 -0400
> To: Daniel F Heiman <[3][5]heiman.dan...@juno.com>
> Cc: <[4][6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
> Daniel F Heiman wrote:
> > Stuart:
> >
> > In his instrumental version Michael is taking a tempo to match
the
> > current fashion for rendering the original Passereau chanson.
An
> only
> > slightly extreme example is the one by the King's Singers:
> > [5][7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
> >
> > If you listen to Michael's rendition immediately after that, he
seems
> > positively laid back.
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> That explains it. Thanks. I was just intrigued by the possible
irony
> that - after discussion whether some of these fast pieces pieces
should
> be played slower - here's someone playing slow pieces much faster!
> I used to have a recording of a group singing a chanson with a
title
> something like 'Il est belle et bon' (which can't be right),
possibly
> also by Passereau and that was sung very quickly. And then looking
at a
> lute arrangement of the chanson, possibly in Phalese somewhere and
> thinking something to the effect - no chance, at that speed.
Leroy's
> guitar arrangement of the Passereau chanson (that Michael Craddock
> recorded) is simple and straightforward so perhaps that does hint
at a
> fast speed.
> Stuart
> > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:55:38 +0000 Stuart Walsh
> <[6][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> > writes:
> >
> >> Monica Hall wrote:
> >>
> >>> Michael Craddock has made a very nice recording of some of
these
> >>> pieces . It is Cantus Records, C 9632.
> >>>
> >>> However he does try to play the diminue versions at the same
speed
> >>>
> >> as
> >>
> >>> the unadorned versions - and doesn't always bring it off
cleanly.
> >>>
> >>> I would think that a slightly slower tempo might be acceptable
-
> >>>
> >> even
> >>
> >>> for the plain versions.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe I am getting old but breakneck speeds don't always seem
to
> >>>
> >> me to
> >>
> >>> work very well on double strung instruments. Everything seems
to
> >>>
> >> merge
> >>
> >>> together and lack clarity.
> >>>
> >>> I seem to remember reading in one of the books - can't
remember
> >>>
> >> where
> >>
> >>> - that you should adopt a speed which matches your ability...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> MOnica
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I googled Michael Craddock and found a couple of recordings of
> >> four-course repertoire, including this chanson which Giesbert
> >> translates
> >> as "I dare not say it";
> >>
> >> [7][9]http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
> >>
> >> In the tablature there are no fast runs - it doesn't appear to
be an
> >>
> >> extravert piece but Craddock blazes through it! I supoose he
had
> >> good
> >> reasons but I'd have thought that this was a gentle little
piece.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh"
> >>>
> >> <[8][10]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> >>
> >>> To: "Michael Fink" <[9][11]michael.f...@notesinc.com>;
"Vihuelalist"
> >>> <[10][12]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 PM
> >>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus
diminuees'
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Regarding your questions, some commentaries you might want
to
> >>>>>
> >> look
> >>
> >>>>> at are:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * Jocelyn Carrie Nelson, "Adrian Le Roy's _Premiere livre de
> >>>>> tabulature de
> >>>>> guiterre_ (1551): Transcription and analysis of the
ornamented
> >>>>>
> >> pavanes,
> >>
> >>>>> galliards, and branles," D.M.A. monograph, University of
> >>>>>
> >> Colorado,
> >>
> >>>>> 2002.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * Michael Fink," The 'Lost' Guitar Pieces of Adrian Le Roy,"
> >>>>>
> >> _Lute
> >>
> >>>>> Society
> >>>>> of America Quarterly_, XLIII/3 (Sep 2008): 42-43.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * The additional "plus diminuee" pieces discussed in the
latter
> >>>>>
> >> are
> >>
> >>>>> published in _Pierre Phalese, Selectissima Elegantissimaque
> >>>>>
> >> Guiterna
> >>
> >>>>> Carmina
> >>>>> 1570_, Introduction by Michael Fink. Lubeck: Tree Edition,
> >>>>>
> >> (c)2007.
> >>
> >>>> Many thanks for these references.
> >>>>
> >>>>> IMHO, Renaissance dances in printed or ms. collections are
> >>>>>
> >> somewhat
> >>
> >>>>> bifocal.
> >>>>> They may or may not be intended for the dance. The
distinctive
> >>>>> rhythms and
> >>>>> periodicity of a dance may be present, but those features
may be
> >>>>>
> >> merely
> >>
> >>>>> structural, and the piece may have been written mainly for
> >>>>>
> >> listening
> >>
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> playing enjoyment.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thus tempos in Le Roy's "plus diminuee" versions could
probably
> >>>>>
> >> be
> >>
> >>>>> modified
> >>>>> from the unadorned versions with good effect.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I'm always intrigued by a puzzle and either players then (and
> >>>>
> >> this
> >>
> >>>> repertoire is usually said to be aimed at amateurs) were
capable
> >>>>
> >> of
> >>
> >>>> playing at staggering speeds - or, as I think you are
suggesting
> >>>>
> >> -
> >>
> >>>> they played these pieces more slowly. But I think there are
> >>>>
> >> problems
> >>
> >>>> with both.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm just an amateur player but playing first the plain
version of
> >>>>
> >> a
> >>
> >>>> little dance at something like a dance-like tempo - then
keeping
> >>>>
> >> that
> >>
> >>>> tempo and trying to play the fancy version at the same tempo
is
> >>>>
> >> quite
> >>
> >>>> beyond possibility for me. But if loads of people are
playing
> >>>>
> >> these
> >>
> >>>> pieces (the 'plus diminuees' versions ) I'd love to hear
them.and
> >>>>
> >> be
> >>
> >>>> rightly chastened. Even playing flat out, playing far faster
> >>>>
> >> than I
> >>
> >>>> can clearly articulate, doesn't get me close to the speed I'd
> >>>>
> >> need to
> >>
> >>>> be if I'm playing in the dance-like tempo of the plain
version.
> >>>>
> >> At
> >>
> >>>> these sort of speeds the music is miles beyond any amateur
> >>>>
> >> plucked
> >>
> >>>> music I've ever encountered.
> >>>>
> >>>> But playing them more slowly seems implausible too. They
fancy
> >>>> versions are only fancy in having these very fast (rather
> >>>>
> >> formulaic)
> >>
> >>>> runs - they aren't wholly re-cast as arty things and there
are
> >>>>
> >> bars
> >>
> >>>> and bars without fast divisions which would just sound rather
> >>>>
> >> silly
> >>
> >>>> at a slower speed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Stuart
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> (BTW, Le Roy seems to be the
> >>>>> only composer to write plain & fancy versions of the same
piece
> >>>>>
> >> for the
> >>
> >>>>> guitar -- and for the lute.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> At this point, I yield to Jocelyn with her extensive
experience
> >>>>>
> >> in this
> >>
> >>>>> repertoire and deep knowledge of the Renaissance guitar. You
may
> >>>>>
> >>>>> wish to
> >>>>> write to her.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best wishes,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Michael Fink
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [11][13]mich...@lgv-pub.com
> >>>>> _________________________
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Stuart Walsh [[12]mailto:[14]s.wa...@ntlworld.com]
Sent:
> Tuesday,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> March 24, 2009 3:54 PM
> >>>>> To: Vihuelalist
> >>>>> Subject: [VIHUELA] four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've got a four-course guitar for a short while. I used to
try
> >>>>>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>>> play this four-course (mid 16th century) repertoire, years
ago,
> >>>>>
> >> on a
> >>
> >>>>> baritone uke and a home-made concoction - without much
success
> >>>>>
> >> or
> >>
> >>>>> pleasure. Anyway this current instrument is a good one...but
I
> >>>>>
> >> must
> >>
> >>>>> admit I can't make it sound very well at all.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But I'm interested to know what people think about the
speeds
> >>>>>
> >> of
> >>
> >>>>> the 'plus diminuee' pieces, the versions of pieces with
> >>>>>
> >> divisions.
> >>
> >>>>> Leroy's Third Book has many little dances with second
versions
> >>>>>
> >> of
> >>
> >>>>> the pieces with divisions. Perhaps it's important that the
'plus
> >>>>>
> >>>>> diminuees' versions are free-standing. Pieces with
ornamented
> >>>>> repeats might have been expected. But no, there is a
> >>>>> straightforward, 'simple' version and then the 'plus
diminuees'
> >>>>>
> >>>>> version.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some commentators (like Harvey Turnbull) have been quite
> >>>>>
> >> dismissive
> >>
> >>>>> of all of this 'amateur' music - which, I suppose, it must
have
> >>>>>
> >>>>> been. But looking at the 'plus diminuees' pieces again, and
> >>>>>
> >> trying
> >>
> >>>>> to play them I wonder whoever could possibly have played
them.
> >>>>>
> >> As an
> >>
> >>>>> example, the straightforward version of Almande tournee
> >>>>>
> >> (Allemande
> >>
> >>>>> Loreyne) f.16 feels like a two to a bar tune with running
eighth
> >>>>>
> >>>>> notes. It's a lively little dance. But, at that speed for
the
> >>>>> straightforward version, the 'plus diminuees' version is
> >>>>> ridiculously, absurdly - freakishly - fast. But if the
'plus
> >>>>> diminuess' version is slowed down to a human level, the
dance is
> >>>>>
> >> now
> >>
> >>>>> unbearably, turgidly slow.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Th Spanish guitar books don't have an equivalent of these
'plus
> >>>>>
> >>>>> diminuees' pieces. The Spanish guitar pieces can be
challenging
> >>>>>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>>> difficult - but not beyond practice and hard work. I don't
> >>>>>
> >> think
> >>
> >>>>> the Gorlier books have anything like the 'plus diminuees'
pieces
> >>>>>
> >>>>> either.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Paul Odette (fastest on earth?) has recorded some of this
stuff
> >>>>>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>>> it sounds a bit weird...why turn a dance tune into a sort of
> >>>>>
> >> machine
> >>
> >>>>> gun burst? (And almost all of the divisions are within the
first
> >>>>>
> >>>>> five frets of a four-course instrument: all squashed into to
a
> >>>>>
> >> tiny
> >>
> >>>>> space).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So I wonder what these 'plus diminuees' pieces are all
about.
> >>>>>
> >> Is
> >>
> >>>>> anyone happily playing them?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Stuart
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>>>>
[13][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus
Database:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 270.11.28/2022 - Release Date: 03/25/09 07:16:00
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> >
> >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >>> Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2023 - Release
Date:
> >>>
> >> 03/25/09 18:54:00
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2024 - Release
Date:
> 03/26/09 07:12:00
> >
> >
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[16]nels...@ecu.edu
> 2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[17]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[18]heiman.dan...@juno.com
> 4.
file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[19]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 5. [20]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
> 6. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[21]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 7. [22]http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
> 8. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[23]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 9.
file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[24]michael.f...@notesinc.com
> 10.
file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[25]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 11. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[26]mich...@lgv-pub.com
> 12. mailto:[27]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
> 13. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.285 / Virus Database:
270.11.32/2030 - Release Date: 03/30/09 08:40:00
>
>
--
References
1. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/Almande.jpg
2. http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/PoD.mp3
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=heiman.dan...@juno.com
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
9. http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mich...@lgv-pub.com
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=heiman.dan...@juno.com
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
20. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
22. http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com
25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mich...@lgv-pub.com
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
