Daniel F Heiman wrote:
Stuart:
In his instrumental version Michael is taking a tempo to match the
current fashion for rendering the original Passereau chanson. An only
slightly extreme example is the one by the King's Singers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
If you listen to Michael's rendition immediately after that, he seems
positively laid back.
Daniel
That explains it. Thanks. I was just intrigued by the possible irony
that - after discussion whether some of these fast pieces pieces should
be played slower - here's someone playing slow pieces much faster!
I used to have a recording of a group singing a chanson with a title
something like 'Il est belle et bon' (which can't be right), possibly
also by Passereau and that was sung very quickly. And then looking at a
lute arrangement of the chanson, possibly in Phalese somewhere and
thinking something to the effect - no chance, at that speed. Leroy's
guitar arrangement of the Passereau chanson (that Michael Craddock
recorded) is simple and straightforward so perhaps that does hint at a
fast speed.
Stuart
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:55:38 +0000 Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
writes:
Monica Hall wrote:
Michael Craddock has made a very nice recording of some of these
pieces . It is Cantus Records, C 9632.
However he does try to play the diminue versions at the same speed
as
the unadorned versions - and doesn't always bring it off cleanly.
I would think that a slightly slower tempo might be acceptable -
even
for the plain versions.
Maybe I am getting old but breakneck speeds don't always seem to
me to
work very well on double strung instruments. Everything seems to
merge
together and lack clarity.
I seem to remember reading in one of the books - can't remember
where
- that you should adopt a speed which matches your ability...
MOnica
I googled Michael Craddock and found a couple of recordings of
four-course repertoire, including this chanson which Giesbert
translates
as "I dare not say it";
http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
In the tablature there are no fast runs - it doesn't appear to be an
extravert piece but Craddock blazes through it! I supoose he had
good
reasons but I'd have thought that this was a gentle little piece.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh"
<s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
To: "Michael Fink" <michael.f...@notesinc.com>; "Vihuelalist"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
Regarding your questions, some commentaries you might want to
look
at are:
* Jocelyn Carrie Nelson, "Adrian Le Roy's _Premiere livre de
tabulature de
guiterre_ (1551): Transcription and analysis of the ornamented
pavanes,
galliards, and branles," D.M.A. monograph, University of
Colorado,
2002.
* Michael Fink," The 'Lost' Guitar Pieces of Adrian Le Roy,"
_Lute
Society
of America Quarterly_, XLIII/3 (Sep 2008): 42-43.
* The additional "plus diminuee" pieces discussed in the latter
are
published in _Pierre Phalese, Selectissima Elegantissimaque
Guiterna
Carmina
1570_, Introduction by Michael Fink. Lubeck: Tree Edition,
(c)2007.
Many thanks for these references.
IMHO, Renaissance dances in printed or ms. collections are
somewhat
bifocal.
They may or may not be intended for the dance. The distinctive
rhythms and
periodicity of a dance may be present, but those features may be
merely
structural, and the piece may have been written mainly for
listening
and
playing enjoyment.
Thus tempos in Le Roy's "plus diminuee" versions could probably
be
modified
from the unadorned versions with good effect.
I'm always intrigued by a puzzle and either players then (and
this
repertoire is usually said to be aimed at amateurs) were capable
of
playing at staggering speeds - or, as I think you are suggesting
-
they played these pieces more slowly. But I think there are
problems
with both.
I'm just an amateur player but playing first the plain version of
a
little dance at something like a dance-like tempo - then keeping
that
tempo and trying to play the fancy version at the same tempo is
quite
beyond possibility for me. But if loads of people are playing
these
pieces (the 'plus diminuees' versions ) I'd love to hear them.and
be
rightly chastened. Even playing flat out, playing far faster
than I
can clearly articulate, doesn't get me close to the speed I'd
need to
be if I'm playing in the dance-like tempo of the plain version.
At
these sort of speeds the music is miles beyond any amateur
plucked
music I've ever encountered.
But playing them more slowly seems implausible too. They fancy
versions are only fancy in having these very fast (rather
formulaic)
runs - they aren't wholly re-cast as arty things and there are
bars
and bars without fast divisions which would just sound rather
silly
at a slower speed.
Stuart
(BTW, Le Roy seems to be the
only composer to write plain & fancy versions of the same piece
for the
guitar -- and for the lute.)
At this point, I yield to Jocelyn with her extensive experience
in this
repertoire and deep knowledge of the Renaissance guitar. You may
wish to
write to her.
Best wishes,
Michael Fink
_________________________
mich...@lgv-pub.com
_________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Walsh [mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday,
March 24, 2009 3:54 PM
To: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
I've got a four-course guitar for a short while. I used to try
and
play this four-course (mid 16th century) repertoire, years ago,
on a
baritone uke and a home-made concoction - without much success
or
pleasure. Anyway this current instrument is a good one...but I
must
admit I can't make it sound very well at all.
But I'm interested to know what people think about the speeds
of
the 'plus diminuee' pieces, the versions of pieces with
divisions.
Leroy's Third Book has many little dances with second versions
of
the pieces with divisions. Perhaps it's important that the 'plus
diminuees' versions are free-standing. Pieces with ornamented
repeats might have been expected. But no, there is a
straightforward, 'simple' version and then the 'plus diminuees'
version.
Some commentators (like Harvey Turnbull) have been quite
dismissive
of all of this 'amateur' music - which, I suppose, it must have
been. But looking at the 'plus diminuees' pieces again, and
trying
to play them I wonder whoever could possibly have played them.
As an
example, the straightforward version of Almande tournee
(Allemande
Loreyne) f.16 feels like a two to a bar tune with running eighth
notes. It's a lively little dance. But, at that speed for the
straightforward version, the 'plus diminuees' version is
ridiculously, absurdly - freakishly - fast. But if the 'plus
diminuess' version is slowed down to a human level, the dance is
now
unbearably, turgidly slow.
Th Spanish guitar books don't have an equivalent of these 'plus
diminuees' pieces. The Spanish guitar pieces can be challenging
and
difficult - but not beyond practice and hard work. I don't
think
the Gorlier books have anything like the 'plus diminuees' pieces
either.
Paul Odette (fastest on earth?) has recorded some of this stuff
and
it sounds a bit weird...why turn a dance tune into a sort of
machine
gun burst? (And almost all of the divisions are within the first
five frets of a four-course instrument: all squashed into to a
tiny
space).
So I wonder what these 'plus diminuees' pieces are all about.
Is
anyone happily playing them?
Stuart
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