Hi Martyn,
Are the French 4-course guitar books specifically aimed at the amateur
market? For that matter, does "amateur" have the same connotations of
skill for us as it did for them?
I like to be cautious with commonly accepted modern generalities such
as the amateur market idea for early published music. I don't remember
any primary evidence that these French books from the 1550s were
strictly pedagogical or for players with less ability than others. But
my French isn't so hot, so I'd really appreciate anyone's correction on
this point about these French books in particular. (For that matter, I
could have missed something in English, or any other language, too.)
I do see plenty of internal evidence, however, that much of this
4-course material is virtuosic: besides the diminished dances, try
those battle pieces, or the de Rippe fantasies, etc.
Regarding speed: NPR has a story about a steroid scandal among
musicians; here's the link, below, in case list users haven't heard
this shocking story yet (once you're on the NPR site, click "listen to
this report"). It's nearly 5 minutes long, but this important story is
worth the length ; D
[1]http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4572575
Best,
Jocelyn
--
Jocelyn Nelson, DMA
Teaching Assistant Professor
Early Guitar, Music History
506 School of Music
East Carolina University
252.328.1255 office
252.328.6258 fax
[2]nels...@ecu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: Martyn Hodgson <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:56:36 -0400
To: Stuart Walsh <[4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>, Daniel F Heiman
<[5]heiman.dan...@juno.com>, "Nelson, Jocelyn" <[6]nels...@ecu.edu>
Cc: <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
If the music is primarily meant to accompany dancers, then no doubt
there's clearly much in the position that the speed remains
constant.
However, to take the example of, say, the developed English lute
galliard with divisions suggests a significantly slower speed than
most
dancers find satisfactory - does ayone take these at dancing speed
these days? The tendency for dance forms to become slower over time,
and very often to do with increasing numbers of notes, is clear.
Perhaps the rot sets in when these rapid divisions start to be
introduced...........
I'd also suggest that since these publications were primarily aimed
at
the amateur market the sort of speed O'Dette, and presumably the
early
virtuosi, might achieve is surely unlikely for this market.
MH
--- On Mon, 30/3/09, Nelson, Jocelyn <[8]nels...@ecu.edu> wrote:
From: Nelson, Jocelyn <[9]nels...@ecu.edu>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
To: "Stuart Walsh" <[10]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>, "Daniel F Heiman"
<[11]heiman.dan...@juno.com>
Cc: "[12]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 30 March, 2009, 2:33 PM
Hi Stuart and List,
I think these plus diminuees need to be played up to tempo, even
though
it's such a challenge.
When I think about tempo with these plus diminuee movements, I
take
the
dance aspect seriously. Here are a couple of my favorite quotes
from
the author of the 16th c dance tutor, Orchesography:
"I learned [a galliard] on the lute which I enjoyed seeing danced
by
my
companions as I knew how to play and sing it. And it also seemed
to
me
that the steps were well accented by those who danced it."
And
"Only you should be told now that some dancers divide up the
double
that follows the two simples, and instead of the double
comprising
only
four bars with four semi-breves, they introduce eight minims or
sixteen
crotchets, resulting in a great number of steps, passages and
embellishments, all of which fit into the time and cadence of the
music."
Thoinot Arbeau, Orchesography (Langres: 1589; reprint, New York:
Dover,
1967, translated by Mary Stewart Evans, introduced and annotated
by
Julia Sutton), pp 66 and 91 (page references are to reprint
edition).
Le Roy himself seems to imply a tempo with the diminutions:
. . . decke other songes or daunses, with like flowers and
ornamentes:
in whiche he shall bee forced sometyme, for the better grace and
pleasying of the eare, to leave out someone note of the accorde,
of
some one of the partes: not so much for all that for necessitie,
as
for
the pleasauntness of the sounde: yea, and that with full
recompence
of
the lacke of the note, whiche shalbee omitted, by the puttyng to
of
runnyng poinct or passage, wherein lieth all the cunnyng.
Adrian Le Roy, A Briefe and Plaine Instruction. London:
Rowbotham,
1574, quoted in Adrian Le Roy, Adrian Le Roy; French Renaissance
Guitar
Songs, Charles Wolzien, ed. (Quebec: Doberman-Yppan, 2002), 10.
Yes, the speed is very challenging, and I think musicality is
even
harder with some of these more extreme versions. One of my
favorite
tracks on Michael Craddock's recording is the Le Roy prelude,
which
has
that dichotomy between the long notes and the swift scalar runs.
Craddock, with his very impressive technique, executes the fast
passages well and all feels musical to me. But the reason why the
Prelude works so well is that it's less metric, with lots of room
for
the musician to build, wind down, and so on, unlike the plus
diminuee
movements we're talking about.
Morlaye's "La Seraphine" might make a better model if we're
wondering
about this style, because it also goes quite abruptly from long
notes
to fast diminutions, in this instance with a style which asks for
a
more strict tempo, more like the dances. I personally think the
pulse
falls apart if we slow down for the divisions, so to me this
piece
provides some evidence of a style in which a burst of short notes
in
tempo was not unusual or "freakish" to them.
Stuart, which O'Dette recordings are you referring to? I have one
example: "Tablatures de Leut" Astree E7776 1990. He plays a Le
Roy
bransle with a plus diminuee movement; his diminutions are very
crisp,
light and graceful. To my ears he pulls this off not only
technically
but musically, too, in spite of the disparity between the long
and
short notes. I'd love to hear about other recordings if you know
of
some.
Sorry for such a long email. I'll end with my idea that these
diminutions themselves are optional - whether we do them at all,
and
which notes we use is up to the performer. If we want to be
completely
"authentic," we should be making up our own (according to certain
conventions regarding which phrases and beats were most
ornamented
in
particular dances). Even dance tempos have at least a bit of a
range
with dancers, which is where we should find our dance tempos. But
whether or not plus diminuee movements should be performed "up to
tempo" right after a plainer version of a dance movement? I don't
think
that's optional; any other tempo would make the dancers look very
funny!
Best,
Jocelyn
--
Jocelyn Nelson, DMA
Teaching Assistant Professor
Early Guitar, Music History
506 School of Music
East Carolina University
252.328.1255 office
252.328.6258 fax
[1][1][14]nels...@ecu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: Stuart Walsh <[2][2][15]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:09:05 -0400
To: Daniel F Heiman <[3][3][16]heiman.dan...@juno.com>
Cc: <[4][4][17]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus diminuees'
Daniel F Heiman wrote:
> Stuart:
>
> In his instrumental version Michael is taking a tempo to match
the
> current fashion for rendering the original Passereau chanson.
An
only
> slightly extreme example is the one by the King's Singers:
> [5][5][18]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
>
> If you listen to Michael's rendition immediately after that, he
seems
> positively laid back.
>
> Daniel
>
That explains it. Thanks. I was just intrigued by the possible
irony
that - after discussion whether some of these fast pieces pieces
should
be played slower - here's someone playing slow pieces much
faster!
I used to have a recording of a group singing a chanson with a
title
something like 'Il est belle et bon' (which can't be right),
possibly
also by Passereau and that was sung very quickly. And then
looking
at a
lute arrangement of the chanson, possibly in Phalese somewhere
and
thinking something to the effect - no chance, at that speed.
Leroy's
guitar arrangement of the Passereau chanson (that Michael
Craddock
recorded) is simple and straightforward so perhaps that does hint
at
a
fast speed.
Stuart
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 22:55:38 +0000 Stuart Walsh
<[6][6][19]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> writes:
>
>> Monica Hall wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Craddock has made a very nice recording of some of
these
>>> pieces . It is Cantus Records, C 9632.
>>>
>>> However he does try to play the diminue versions at the same
speed
>>>
>> as
>>
>>> the unadorned versions - and doesn't always bring it off
cleanly.
>>>
>>> I would think that a slightly slower tempo might be
acceptable -
>>>
>> even
>>
>>> for the plain versions.
>>>
>>> Maybe I am getting old but breakneck speeds don't always seem
to
>>>
>> me to
>>
>>> work very well on double strung instruments. Everything seems
to
>>>
>> merge
>>
>>> together and lack clarity.
>>>
>>> I seem to remember reading in one of the books - can't
remember
>>>
>> where
>>
>>> - that you should adopt a speed which matches your
ability...
>>>
>>>
>>> MOnica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I googled Michael Craddock and found a couple of recordings
of
>> four-course repertoire, including this chanson which Giesbert
>> translates
>> as "I dare not say it";
>>
>>
[7][7][20]http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
>>
>> In the tablature there are no fast runs - it doesn't appear to
be
an
>>
>> extravert piece but Craddock blazes through it! I supoose he
had
>> good
>> reasons but I'd have thought that this was a gentle little
piece.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stuart Walsh"
>>>
>> <[8][8][21]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
>>
>>> To: "Michael Fink" <[9][9][22]michael.f...@notesinc.com>;
"Vihuelalist"
>>> <[10][10][23]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 PM
>>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: four-course guitar music 'plus
diminuees'
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Regarding your questions, some commentaries you might want
to
>>>>>
>> look
>>
>>>>> at are:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Jocelyn Carrie Nelson, "Adrian Le Roy's _Premiere livre
de
>>>>> tabulature de
>>>>> guiterre_ (1551): Transcription and analysis of the
ornamented
>>>>>
>> pavanes,
>>
>>>>> galliards, and branles," D.M.A. monograph, University of
>>>>>
>> Colorado,
>>
>>>>> 2002.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Michael Fink," The 'Lost' Guitar Pieces of Adrian Le
Roy,"
>>>>>
>> _Lute
>>
>>>>> Society
>>>>> of America Quarterly_, XLIII/3 (Sep 2008): 42-43.
>>>>>
>>>>> * The additional "plus diminuee" pieces discussed in the
latter
>>>>>
>> are
>>
>>>>> published in _Pierre Phalese, Selectissima Elegantissimaque
>>>>>
>> Guiterna
>>
>>>>> Carmina
>>>>> 1570_, Introduction by Michael Fink. Lubeck: Tree Edition,
>>>>>
>> (c)2007.
>>
>>>> Many thanks for these references.
>>>>
>>>>> IMHO, Renaissance dances in printed or ms. collections are
>>>>>
>> somewhat
>>
>>>>> bifocal.
>>>>> They may or may not be intended for the dance. The
distinctive
>>>>> rhythms and
>>>>> periodicity of a dance may be present, but those features
may
be
>>>>>
>> merely
>>
>>>>> structural, and the piece may have been written mainly for
>>>>>
>> listening
>>
>>>>> and
>>>>> playing enjoyment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus tempos in Le Roy's "plus diminuee" versions could
probably
>>>>>
>> be
>>
>>>>> modified
>>>>> from the unadorned versions with good effect.
>>>>>
>>>> I'm always intrigued by a puzzle and either players then
(and
>>>>
>> this
>>
>>>> repertoire is usually said to be aimed at amateurs) were
capable
>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>> playing at staggering speeds - or, as I think you are
suggesting
>>>>
>> -
>>
>>>> they played these pieces more slowly. But I think there are
>>>>
>> problems
>>
>>>> with both.
>>>>
>>>> I'm just an amateur player but playing first the plain
version
of
>>>>
>> a
>>
>>>> little dance at something like a dance-like tempo - then
keeping
>>>>
>> that
>>
>>>> tempo and trying to play the fancy version at the same tempo
is
>>>>
>> quite
>>
>>>> beyond possibility for me. But if loads of people are
playing
>>>>
>> these
>>
>>>> pieces (the 'plus diminuees' versions ) I'd love to hear
them.and
>>>>
>> be
>>
>>>> rightly chastened. Even playing flat out, playing far
faster
>>>>
>> than I
>>
>>>> can clearly articulate, doesn't get me close to the speed
I'd
>>>>
>> need to
>>
>>>> be if I'm playing in the dance-like tempo of the plain
version.
>>>>
>> At
>>
>>>> these sort of speeds the music is miles beyond any amateur
>>>>
>> plucked
>>
>>>> music I've ever encountered.
>>>>
>>>> But playing them more slowly seems implausible too. They
fancy
>>>> versions are only fancy in having these very fast (rather
>>>>
>> formulaic)
>>
>>>> runs - they aren't wholly re-cast as arty things and there
are
>>>>
>> bars
>>
>>>> and bars without fast divisions which would just sound
rather
>>>>
>> silly
>>
>>>> at a slower speed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> (BTW, Le Roy seems to be the
>>>>> only composer to write plain & fancy versions of the same
piece
>>>>>
>> for the
>>
>>>>> guitar -- and for the lute.)
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point, I yield to Jocelyn with her extensive
experience
>>>>>
>> in this
>>
>>>>> repertoire and deep knowledge of the Renaissance guitar.
You
may
>>>>>
>>>>> wish to
>>>>> write to her.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Fink
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> [11][11][24]mich...@lgv-pub.com
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Stuart Walsh
[[12][25]mailto:[12]s.wa...@ntlworld.com] Sent:
Tuesday,
>>>>>
>>>>> March 24, 2009 3:54 PM
>>>>> To: Vihuelalist
>>>>> Subject: [VIHUELA] four-course guitar music 'plus
diminuees'
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got a four-course guitar for a short while. I used to
try
>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>> play this four-course (mid 16th century) repertoire, years
ago,
>>>>>
>> on a
>>
>>>>> baritone uke and a home-made concoction - without much
success
>>>>>
>> or
>>
>>>>> pleasure. Anyway this current instrument is a good
one...but I
>>>>>
>> must
>>
>>>>> admit I can't make it sound very well at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'm interested to know what people think about the
speeds
>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>> the 'plus diminuee' pieces, the versions of pieces with
>>>>>
>> divisions.
>>
>>>>> Leroy's Third Book has many little dances with second
versions
>>>>>
>> of
>>
>>>>> the pieces with divisions. Perhaps it's important that the
'plus
>>>>>
>>>>> diminuees' versions are free-standing. Pieces with
ornamented
>>>>> repeats might have been expected. But no, there is a
>>>>> straightforward, 'simple' version and then the 'plus
diminuees'
>>>>>
>>>>> version.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some commentators (like Harvey Turnbull) have been quite
>>>>>
>> dismissive
>>
>>>>> of all of this 'amateur' music - which, I suppose, it must
have
>>>>>
>>>>> been. But looking at the 'plus diminuees' pieces again, and
>>>>>
>> trying
>>
>>>>> to play them I wonder whoever could possibly have played
them.
>>>>>
>> As an
>>
>>>>> example, the straightforward version of Almande tournee
>>>>>
>> (Allemande
>>
>>>>> Loreyne) f.16 feels like a two to a bar tune with running
eighth
>>>>>
>>>>> notes. It's a lively little dance. But, at that speed for
the
>>>>> straightforward version, the 'plus diminuees' version is
>>>>> ridiculously, absurdly - freakishly - fast. But if the
'plus
>>>>> diminuess' version is slowed down to a human level, the
dance
is
>>>>>
>> now
>>
>>>>> unbearably, turgidly slow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Th Spanish guitar books don't have an equivalent of these
'plus
>>>>>
>>>>> diminuees' pieces. The Spanish guitar pieces can be
challenging
>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>> difficult - but not beyond practice and hard work. I don't
>>>>>
>> think
>>
>>>>> the Gorlier books have anything like the 'plus diminuees'
pieces
>>>>>
>>>>> either.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Odette (fastest on earth?) has recorded some of this
stuff
>>>>>
>> and
>>
>>>>> it sounds a bit weird...why turn a dance tune into a sort
of
>>>>>
>> machine
>>
>>>>> gun burst? (And almost all of the divisions are within the
first
>>>>>
>>>>> five frets of a four-course instrument: all squashed into
to a
>>>>>
>> tiny
>>
>>>>> space).
>>>>>
>>>>> So I wonder what these 'plus diminuees' pieces are all
about.
>>>>>
>> Is
>>
>>>>> anyone happily playing them?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>
[13][13][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
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---
---
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>
>>>>>
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>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus
Database:
>>>>>
>>>>> 270.11.28/2022 - Release Date: 03/25/09 07:16:00
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>
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>
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>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>> Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2023 - Release
Date:
>>>
>> 03/25/09 18:54:00
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>>
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>
>
>
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Date:
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--
References
1. [27]file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[14]nels...@ecu.edu
2.
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--
References
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15.
[54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
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21.
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--
References
1. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4572575
2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu
3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com
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14. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/nels...@ecu.edu
15. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com
16. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/heiman.dan...@juno.com
17. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
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19. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com
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21. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/s.wa...@ntlworld.com
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23. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
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27. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[14]nels...@ecu.edu
28. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[15]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
29. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[16]heiman.dan...@juno.com
30. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[17]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
31. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
32. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[19]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
33. http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
34. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[21]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
35. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[22]michael.f...@notesinc.com
36. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[23]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
37. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[24]mich...@lgv-pub.com
38. mailto:[25]s.wa...@ntlworld.com
39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
40. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
41. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
42. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=heiman.dan...@juno.com
43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
44. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
45. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
46. http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
47. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
48. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com
49. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
50. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mich...@lgv-pub.com
51. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
52. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
53. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nels...@ecu.edu
54. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
55. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=heiman.dan...@juno.com
56. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
57. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmpl4mZQgAc
58. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
59. http://www.polyhymnion.org/mus/craddock/audio/crad11.mp3
60. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
61. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=michael.f...@notesinc.com
62. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
63. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mich...@lgv-pub.com
64. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
65. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
