You have actually summed up all the thoughts that have been running
through my mind this afternoon.
The problem is that classical guitarists all the time think of the
fourth and fifth courses as sounding in the lower octave and they don't
really listen to what they are actually playing. With bourdons or
without them, the high octave strings are ever present and they
alter both the melodic line and the internal counterpoint. This
problem is exacerbated by the common practice of transcribing baroque
guitar music into staff notation with the notes on the fourth and fifth
course shown only in the lower octave. Added to which some classical
guitarists don't seem to have a very good grasp of the rules of musical
theory anyway and don't analyse the harmony and counterpoint correctly
in the first place.
It's a hopeless case really! I don't actually mind if people just
play the music the way they like it. What irritates me is when they
try to argue that what they are doing is historically accurate - and
that everyone who does it differently is wrong.
So - re-entrant tuners of the world unite. You have nothing to use
but your bourdons.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]WALSH STUART
Cc: [4]Vihuelalist
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex
Eisenhardt
I'd like to chime in (no pun intended) as a cured classical guitarist.
(And let me add, nothing is worse than a cured drunk.) Hello, I'm
Chris, and I'm a classical guitarist. Today I've been bordon - free
for six months (applause).
Actually, I struggled with this issue when I first got my instrument,
and received some stinging replies -- the internet works that way. The
point has been taken, and I'm happier for it.
Indeed, the idiosyncrasies of the instrument are a very big deal. Not
only do they affect the sound you hear. They affect the logic of your
interpretation. I'm currently being extreme, and using the Sanz,
no-bordon stringing. That means I have to ground myself with a G as
the lowest note. Classical guitarists are used to grounding themselves
in the lowest note of a voicing, and building their interpretation of
voice leading (is that what you call it???) and melodic development on
that. Well, we're also used to finding it THREE whole strings below
the G. Grounding on the G in a 5-course instrument requires changes in
physical logic, muscle logic, reading logic, melodic logic, and voicing
logic. Probably the most difficult thing is to take a piece you
learned and loved from a Narciso Yepes transcription of Sanz, and then
play it on the Baroque guitar. Talk about cambio del chip, as they say
in Spain... Or as the Firesign Theater once said, "Everything You Know
is Wrong."
This is a GOOD thing. Embrace it.
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: WALSH STUART <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 7:09:10 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
----- Original Message ----- From: "WALSH STUART"
<[5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
To: "Alexander Batov" <[6]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:42 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
> On 24 August 2010 21:52, Alexander Batov
> <[1][8]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com> wrote:
>
> OK, I'm glad we agree on this.
> Alexander
> On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote:
>
> It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on
> the 5th course.
> I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex
made
> in 1994 - with the "French" tuning. Much better in every way.
> Monica
>
>
>
>
> I'd be fascinated to hear both versions! The campanellas on these
> videos sound great with the low bourdons - or rather, with skilful
> avoidance of them (when necessary, as in campanellas). And their
> presence is very subtle. Alexander didn't even hear the low fifth.
>
> I know Monica and Lex have disputed these matters at length.
>
> This is obviously very sophisticated music. If (if) there is not
> sufficient evidence for either approach, and if it comes down to
> preference, then I think I'd rather go for bourdons. But it would be
> really interesting to hear one piece side by side with and without a
> bourdon on the fifth.
>
>
> Stuart
Well - that's what I was able to do as I have the CD. I think the
quality
of the recording of the CD is better than in the video - which is of a
live
performance and presumably unedited.
But the point is that in the video he is trying to leave out the
bourdons most of the time
and to my ears this results in the campanellas sounding tentative and
uneven - they don't ring out and overlap creating a bell-like effect.
The idea that the skips of a 7th etc must be eliminated so that all you
have is a rather feeble scale passage which would sound better played
in a conventional way is misguided. That's not what happens with bell
ringing.
Also the bourdon on the fifth course creates an imbalence between 2 and
3 part counterpoint and the strummed 5-part chords which are too
prominent - especially if they are 6-4s.
There is no clear continuous bass line anyway and even in the gigue
where there are imitative entries you hear these in the upper octave
rather than the lower because it is impossible to leave the high
octave string out. The re-entrant effect is a constant.
I don't know what kind of strings he is using but in places the bourdon
on the 5th course sound twangy. Overwound perhaps which Bartolotti
would never have used. I would say that if you are going to use
bourdons you should use plain gut ones and use them - not leave them
out 90% of the time.
I just find this idea that somehow all the idiocyncracies must be
eliminated and the music made to sound as if it were rather inferior
classical guitar music is incredibly pedantic. It is the
idiocyncracies that make the music more interesting.
In both recordings the ornamentation is very basic. I know that
Bartolotti's instructions are very basic too - but I am sure that in
practice something much more elaborate would be appropriate.
Unfortunately most people who play this stuff are classical guitarists
who simply haven't registered that the baroque guitar and its music are
different from what they are used to.
Monica
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [2][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. mailto:[10]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
> 2. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
6. mailto:alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. mailto:alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. mailto:alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com
11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
