No, this is what you do - you change the position of the hand a little
by bringing it slightly forward (ie more towards the treble side of the
f/bd) but keep the index across the first two courses and the second
finger on the 3rd course
Martyn
--- On Fri, 3/9/10, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 11:59
There seems to me to be one obvious flaw in this advice......in order
to play an open 4th course you would need to release the barre or shift
it to a half barre as well removing the 3rd fingure from the 5th course
and the 4th finger from the fourth course.
What sort of evidence is there for this sort of discriminatory play
anyway?
Monica
> What you need to do is bear in mind is my comment earlier about not
> rigidly expecting to always play all 5 courses every time you strum
and
> then do this: at G strum all 5, at the 3 again strum the G chord 5
but
> with the accente on the 5th course (just maybe lightly brushing
some of
> the higher courses of the chord - if at all), then at 0 (on 4th)
lift
> the 3rd finger from the 5th course and the 4th from the 4th course
and
> brush upwards, then on the 2 put the 3rd finger down on the 2nd
fret on
> the 4th course and brush down from the 4th course. I believe this
sort
> of discriminatory play was generally expected and becomes, dare I
say
> it, second nature.
>
> Regarding what Corbetta has to say: you often make the point that
there
> was not general stanardisation and that each source should be
examined
> individually without automatically assuming one sources
observations
> necessarily applies to another. And isn't it interesting that
Corbetta
> felt the need to say only strike a single string in this particular
> book - indicating that it was known for a short strum/brush to be
> executed instead.
>
> The point about discriminatory play is that not every strum/brush
> carries the same weight - it's more subtle than that - one adjust
the
> stress according to the melodic and harmonic phrasing and the pulse
of
> the music. Indeed, in some cases it may be that almost all that is
> heard is the single note (especially if it is in the treble) and
I'd
> very much go for a mixture in which sometimes the accompanying
harmony
> is heard (especially when the melody can be easily executed and
> emphasised on the top course) or where the melody predominates
alone.
> So in your B chord example, yes I do strike the 1 and 3 alone but,
note
> that it is quite possible to play the B chord with fret 1 on the
5th
> course (finger 2nd course with 2nd finger and 4th course with third
and
> 5th with first....). if one feels so inclined.
>
> In short, I believe the strummin/brushing possibilities are more
> flexible and serve to enhance the music of this splendid
repertoire
> than I think you do - but maybe I can convert you in due course?
>
> as ever,
>
> Martyn
> --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 15:57
>
> I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord
M
> and
> play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
> play the
> 4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course
stopped at
> the
> 3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would
simply
> be
> repeating Chord G.
> On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
> first
> fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following
Chord
> N on
> line 4 as well.
> I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style. What
Corbetta
> says
> in 1639 is very relevant here...
> Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the
stroke
> marks, these are all intended to be played on the first course
[canto]
> only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so
that it
> is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different
> fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter. In this way it seems
to
> me to create a better and more delicate effect.
> In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st
> course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it
> applies more generally.
> You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any
other
> circumstances. What is the point of doing it here. There is a
clear
> melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as
Corbetta
> says.
> MOnica
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> <[1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:18 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> >
> >
> > Dear Monica,
> >
> > I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the
> notes
> > after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum
with
> a
> > bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the
> answering
> > phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a
> passing
> > dissonance which, as I believe you also pointed out some time
ago,
> > seems to be a hallmark of much of this music.
> >
> > Martyn
> > --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall <[4][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[5][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][11]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 8:58
> >
> > Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed
> it. Here it
> > is
> > in full.
> > This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what
appear
> to
> > be
> > single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether
they
> > should be
> > included in the chord or whether they should be played as
single
> notes
> > -
> > assuming that this is actually practical. There are also
places
> where
> > it
> > is obvious that the "single" note can't be included in the
chord
> and
> > even
> > that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks.
> > It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as
representing
> the
> > music
> > in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it
as
> an
> > indication
> > for what the right hand should do.
> > One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the
> Corrente
> > detta
> > la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has
marked
> the
> > passing
> > notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G
on
> the
> > first
> > line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.
> These
> > can't
> > actually be included in the chord (at least those following
chord G
> > can't!).
> > Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all
with
> > upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as
down-strokes
> > with the
> > thumb.
> > The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should
> physically
> > play
> > the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical
use.
> > I hope that makes sense.
> > Monica
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][8][12]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][9][13]eisenha...@planet.nl>; "Monica
Hall"
> > <[3][10][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][11][15]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Monica,
> > >
> > > I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And
while
> we
> > are
> > > on the subject please note that you can't strum a single
note -
> > that is
> > > a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark
under a
> > single
> > > note but it is still a single note.'
> > >
> > > In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums
at
> least
> > part
> > > of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN
THOUGH
> the
> > > single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of
this.
> > >
> > > as ever,
> > >
> > > Martyn
> > > --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall
<[5][12][16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Monica Hall <[6][13][17]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> > > To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[7][14][18]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8][15][19]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10
> > >
> > > > Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is,
> > however,
> > > who did
> > > > what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has
come
> to us
> > in
> > > songs
> > > > and dances from >1600 - 1620, is predominantly very
> stereotype.
> > > It is what happened to be published.
> > > This is to
> > > > say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least]
> > originally
> > > used to
> > > > give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This
was
> > most
> > > likely
> > > > also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire
from
> > Italy.
> > > Feel
> > > > free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments,
but
> it
> > would
> > > be
> > > > helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our
> > imagination,
> > > but how
> > > > far should that go?
> > > It would be interesting to know your sources. The only
> printed
> > guitar
> > > book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is
> Montesardo,
> > > although there are some manuscripts. How many of these
have
> you
> > seen?
> > > Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments.
> Just
> > > suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the
> more
> > > obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement
with a
> bass
> > > line.
> > > The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's
songbook
> from
> > 1616
> > > - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean. Most
of
> the
> > songs
> > > in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was
a
> > > guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems
> intentional
> > and
> > > works in practice.
> > > > I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The
Lute
> 47)
> > in
> > > which
> > > > I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614),
> with
> > all
> > > kinds
> > > > of extra notes added.
> > > As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are
mistaken in
> > > assuming that in your second example all four chords are to
be
> > strummed
> > > in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is
> > intended to
> > > be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks
does
> not
> > mean
> > > that the second and third chords are to be strummed
including
> all
> > open
> > > courses. There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol
above
> the
> > > first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a
> dotted
> > > crotchet followed by a quaver.
> > > The point is that in very early sources they were
experimenting
> > with
> > > ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes
as
> well
> > as
> > > just indicating the chords and the direction of the
> strums. In a
> > > situation like this where there are no bar lines and no
note
> values
> > the
> > > stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the
duration
> of
> > the
> > > notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable
notation
> was
> > not
> > > invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of
notation
> as
> > a
> > > whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply
> working on
> > the
> > > assumption that what the signs mean in later sources should
be
> > > interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier.
> > > And while we are on the subject please note that you can't
> strum a
> > > single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may
put
> a
> > strum
> > > mark under a single note but it is still a single note.
> > > Perhaps you should read "The baroque guitar made simple" on
my
> web
> > > page.
> > > M
> > > >
> > > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > [1][9][16][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/i
ndex.htm
> l
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1.
> [10][17][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> >
> [18][22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 2.
> [19][23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@pla
net.nl
> > 3.
> [20][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 4.
> [21][25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 5.
> [22][26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 6.
> [23][27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 7.
> [24][28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@pla
net.nl
> > 8.
> [25][29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 9.
[26][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 10.
[27][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 2.
[33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 3.
[34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 4.
[35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 5.
[36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 6.
[37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 7.
[38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 8.
[39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 9.
[40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
> 10.
[41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 11.
[42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 12.
[43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 13.
[44]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 14.
[45]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
> 15.
[46]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 16. [47]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 17. [48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 18.
[49]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 19.
[50]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
> 20.
[51]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 21.
[52]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 22.
[53]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 23.
[54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 24.
[55]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
> 25.
[56]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 26. [57]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 27. [58]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
29. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
33. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
34. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
37. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
38. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
39. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
40. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
41. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
42. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
44. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
45. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
46. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
47. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
49. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
50. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
51. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
52. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
53. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
54. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
55. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
56. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
57. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
58. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
