I'm glad to hear that. Mind you, I'm coming to this with more of an
intuitive sense of what works under my hands. I do read the
instructions and manuscripts when I have them, but I'm still pretty new
at this. I take it as an affirmation for me that the instructions
don't seem to contradict what I would consider to be the logic of the
instrument (or is it vis versa???).
Anyway... I'm glad lists like this are around.
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 2:31:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Yes - what you are saying makes perfect sense. For example when you
are playing the piano this is exactly what happens.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
To: [2]Monica Hall
Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Ah... I didn't mean to strum through a chord while playing these
notes. What I meant was to let the chord ring as much as possible
while actually striking the indicated single notes. I find lots of
places where that can be done without diminishing the clarity of the
single notes at all. For example, in the first measures of this
piece
it's easy to let most of the chord ring on while playing these other
notes.
I think of this as similar to the general tab rule I've had drilled
into my head... Strike notes with the values indicated, but let them
ring as long as possible. Lacking the expression of duration that
modern notation has, I assume that's a general rule for tablatura.
And
so why would it be different when playing a chord? Are you taking
that
to be my meaning when you say I'm incorporating passing notes into
the
chords?
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Chris Despopoulos <[2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 4:11:28 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Thanks for the detailed analysis. I agree with you about the
alternating thumb and finger technique but I dont think you are
supposed to incorporate the passing notes into the chords!
If you read my message to Lex you wll see that Fosco says don't.
Fourthly Particular care must be taken when playing those numbers
which are placed after an alfabeto letter. These must be played
singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings
than those which are shown. In this way the true effect of the
ornamental notes will be felt and the parts will follow clearly
one
after the other which is what I intend.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Martyn Hodgson
Cc: [4]Vihuelalist
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Ok... I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by
and
large I agree with Monica. Where I don't agree is when she says:
> One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the
Corrente
> detta
> la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked
the
> passing
> notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G
on
the
> first
> line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.
These
> can't
> actually be included in the chord (at least those following
chord
G
> can't!).
I agree with the above, but not the following...
> Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all
with
> upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as
down-strokes
> with the
> thumb.
> The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should
physically
> play
> the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical
use.
I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index
for
these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of
the
note, and the index finger for the up-beat. In other words, I'm
thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the
indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion. So I
would
say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ...
As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing
Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note
is
very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a
down-stroke. And these are to be alternated in relation to the
rhythmic structure of the piece. So why would it be different on
the
guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible --
something
I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one.
An added thing I found in trying the piece out... It pays to hold
the
chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note
passages.
But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming
passage.
AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect
sense! If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an
up-stroke
of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9... D-p-ma-p |
H-G-O.
I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails,
and
the ma is pretty much the same thing with only two fingers. Also,
I
let go of the D chord as I play the ma, and with the following
thumb
upstroke my left hand is already playing the barre for the upcoming
H.
All of that happened rather quickly, and the right hand just sort
of
fell into place that way.
Whew... Sorry if this is over the top.
For me the bottom line is maintaining the strumming sensation, in
my
mind, and in my hands as much as possible. Which gets to Monica's
last
statement... The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you
should
physically play. True, but they do have a practical use if they
keep
you oriented in the pulse of the music.
Thanks for pointing to a lovely piece. If I can get the transition
from the N7 to the M+5 in measure 26, I'll add it to my regular bag
of
tricks.
cud
__________________________________________________________________
From: Monica Hall <[4][4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
To: Martyn Hodgson <[5][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[6][6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 10:57:52 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord
M
and
play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
play the
4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course stopped
at
the
3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would
simply
be
repeating Chord G.
On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
first
fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following
Chord
N
on
line 4 as well.
I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style. What
Corbetta
says
in 1639 is very relevant here...
Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the
stroke
marks, these are all intended to be played on the first course
[canto]
only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so
that
it
is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different
fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter. In this way it seems
to
me to create a better and more delicate effect.
In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st
course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it
applies more generally.
You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any
other
circumstances. What is the point of doing it here. There is a
clear
melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as
Corbetta
says.
MOnica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[5][7][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[6][8][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][9][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:18 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
>
>
> Dear Monica,
>
> I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the
notes
> after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum
with
a
> bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the
answering
> phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a
passing
> dissonance which, as I believe you also pointed out some time
ago,
> seems to be a hallmark of much of this music.
>
> Martyn
> --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall
<[8][10][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[9][11][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[10][12][12]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[11][13][13]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 8:58
>
> Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it.
Here
it
> is
> in full.
> This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what
appear
to
> be
> single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether
they
> should be
> included in the chord or whether they should be played as single
notes
> -
> assuming that this is actually practical. There are also places
where
> it
> is obvious that the "single" note can't be included in the chord
and
> even
> that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks.
> It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing
the
> music
> in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it
as
an
> indication
> for what the right hand should do.
> One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the
Corrente
> detta
> la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked
the
> passing
> notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G
on
the
> first
> line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.
These
> can't
> actually be included in the chord (at least those following
chord
G
> can't!).
> Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all
with
> upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as
down-strokes
> with the
> thumb.
> The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should
physically
> play
> the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical
use.
> I hope that makes sense.
> Monica
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[1][12][14][14]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][13][15][15]eisenha...@planet.nl>;
"Monica
Hall"
> <[3][14][16][16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][15][17][17]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> >
> >
> > Dear Monica,
> >
> > I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And
while
we
> are
> > on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note
-
> that is
> > a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a
> single
> > note but it is still a single note.'
> >
> > In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at
least
> part
> > of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN
THOUGH
the
> > single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of
this.
> >
> > as ever,
> >
> > Martyn
> > --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall
<[5][16][18][18]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[6][17][19][19]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
> > To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[7][18][20][20]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8][19][21][21]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10
> >
> > > Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is,
> however,
> > who did
> > > what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come
to
us
> in
> > songs
> > > and dances from >1600 - 1620, is predominantly very
stereotype.
> > It is what happened to be published.
> > This is to
> > > say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least]
> originally
> > used to
> > > give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This
was
> most
> > likely
> > > also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from
> Italy.
> > Feel
> > > free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but
it
> would
> > be
> > > helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our
> imagination,
> > but how
> > > far should that go?
> > It would be interesting to know your sources. The only
printed
> guitar
> > book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is
Montesardo,
> > although there are some manuscripts. How many of these have
you
> seen?
> > Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments.
Just
> > suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the
more
> > obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with
a
bass
> > line.
> > The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook
from
> 1616
> > - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean. Most of
the
> songs
> > in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a
> > guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems
intentional
> and
> > works in practice.
> > > I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The
Lute
47)
> in
> > which
> > > I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614),
with
> all
> > kinds
> > > of extra notes added.
> > As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken
in
> > assuming that in your second example all four chords are to
be
> strummed
> > in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is
> intended to
> > be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does
not
> mean
> > that the second and third chords are to be strummed including
all
> open
> > courses. There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol
above
the
> > first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a
dotted
> > crotchet followed by a quaver.
> > The point is that in very early sources they were
experimenting
> with
> > ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes
as
well
> as
> > just indicating the chords and the direction of the strums.
In
a
> > situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note
values
> the
> > stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the
duration
of
> the
> > notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable notation
was
> not
> > invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of
notation
as
> a
> > whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply
working
on
> the
> > assumption that what the signs mean in later sources should
be
> > interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier.
> > And while we are on the subject please note that you can't
strum
a
> > single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may
put
a
> strum
> > mark under a single note but it is still a single note.
> > Perhaps you should read "The baroque guitar made simple" on
my
web
> > page.
> > M
> > >
> > >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[1][9][20][22][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
l
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
[10][21][23][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
>
[22][24][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yaho
[25]o.co
.uk
> 2.
[23][25][26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@pla
net.
nl
> 3.
[24][26][27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscal
i.co
.uk
> 4.
[25][27][28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmou
th.e
du
> 5.
[26][28][29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscal
i.co
.uk
> 6.
[27][29][30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscal
i.co
.uk
> 7.
[28][30][31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@pla
net.
nl
> 8.
[29][31][32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmou
th.e
du
> 9.
[30][32][33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 10.
[31][33][34]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. mailto:[34][35]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:[35][36]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:[36][37]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. mailto:[37][38]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. mailto:[38][39]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. mailto:[39][40]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. mailto:[40][41]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. mailto:[41][42]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:[42][43]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. mailto:[43][44]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
11. mailto:[44][45]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. mailto:[45][46]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
13. mailto:[46][47]eisenha...@planet.nl
14. mailto:[47][48]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
15. mailto:[48][49]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. mailto:[49][50]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17. mailto:[50][51]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
18. mailto:[51][52]eisenha...@planet.nl
19. mailto:[52][53]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
20.
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21.
[54][55]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
22.
[55][56]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yaho
o.co
.uk
23.
[56][57]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.
nl
24.
[57][58]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.uk
25.
[58][59]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmou
th.e
du
26.
[59][60]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.uk
27.
[60][61]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co
.uk
28.
[61][62]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.
nl
29.
[62][63]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmou
th.e
du
30.
[63][64]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
31.
[64][65]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. mailto:[66]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:[67]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:[68]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. mailto:[69]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5. mailto:[70]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. mailto:[71]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. mailto:[72]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
8. mailto:[73]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. mailto:[74]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. mailto:[75]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
11. mailto:[76]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
12. mailto:[77]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
13. mailto:[78]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. mailto:[79]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
15. mailto:[80]eisenha...@planet.nl
16. mailto:[81]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17. mailto:[82]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
18. mailto:[83]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
19. mailto:[84]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
20. mailto:[85]eisenha...@planet.nl
21. mailto:[86]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
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23. [88]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
24.
[89]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
25.
[90]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
26.
[91]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
27.
[92]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
28.
[93]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
29.
[94]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
30.
[95]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
31.
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34. mailto:[99]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
35. mailto:[100]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
36. mailto:[101]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
37. mailto:[102]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
38. mailto:[103]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
39. mailto:[104]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
40. mailto:[105]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
41. mailto:[106]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
42. mailto:[107]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
43. mailto:[108]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
44. mailto:[109]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
45. mailto:[110]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
46. mailto:[111]eisenha...@planet.nl
47. mailto:[112]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
48. mailto:[113]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
49. mailto:[114]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
50. mailto:[115]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
51. mailto:[116]eisenha...@planet.nl
52. mailto:[117]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
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55.
[120]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.c
o.uk
56.
[121]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
57.
[122]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
58.
[123]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.
edu
59.
[124]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
60.
[125]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
61.
[126]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
62.
[127]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.
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63. [128]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
64. [129]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
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128. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
129. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
