Dear Martyn
In the end I decided that I would reply to the list as there are a few
things which I
think are worth mentioning.
In response to my scepticism that these books/Ms were primarily aimed
at professional guitar players you write 'In any case the books are
intended primarily for theorbo
and keyboard players.' - but what is your evidence for this?
Many of the books include some songs
with alfabeto but by no means all of them have alfabeto. Landi's first
book includes 20 songs, but only 6 have alfabeto. There is sometimes a
distinction between those which were thought suitable for guitar
accompaniment (and therefore perhaps intended to be accompanied in a
different way) and those that weren't. (This is the basis of Cory Gavito's
dissertation if I remember rightly).
But quite a few songbooks were published
which included no songs with alfabeto. And others were published originally
without alfabeto and later with it - like Rontani's. The alfabeto is
included because the guitar was
considered to be a suitable option - even if the alfabeto is not much
help. It is not something that you can generalise about.
What I really meant to say is that the songs themselves were not
composed for amateur singers. Some are quite virtuosic. People like Landi
would have sung them
themselves or performed them with colleagues. Some of the Landi songs have
a compas of an octave + 5th or 6th.
Canta la cicaletta is a good example - very difficult to sing well. But some
amateurs may have sung them.
As said
earlier, it's more likely that publishers saw commercial opportunities
amongst non-professional guitar players as an opportunity to make
money.
I think it is very difficult to say who the books were intended for.
Received wisdom is that the printer added the alfabeto to sell more copies.
But to whom? Would an amateur guitarist want to buy a book of 20 songs
with guitar accompaniment for only 6 of them? Different printers may have
had different markets in mind.
I also wrote: 'Similarly, manuscript collections were frequently
for transmission of dances/songs to pupils.
But these also include some songs with alfabeto and some without.
The other reason for sending this to the list is because I am not sure that
in the Landi the clefs are transposing clefs. It may have more to do with
minimising the use of ledger lines. But there is still a lot about it
which puzzles me.
Monica
<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 17:28
Dear Monica,
>
> You write: 'I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books
are
> not intended for
> amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert
lieder).
> This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for
accomplished
> singers - of whom there would have been a large number in Italy
where
> every church and cathedral had a body of professional singers.'
>
> I beg to differ - what is your evidence for such a statement?
Surely
> the very act of publishing printed books is to sell to the wider
market
> than the few guitar 'professionals' versed in composition so as to
make
> money.
I am not saying that they were intended for just a few "guitar
professionals." In any case the books are intended primarily for
theorbo
and keyboard players.
There must have been thousands of professional singers in Italy at the
time - there were dozens of churches in Rome alone with professional
choirs
and the singers did just sing in church - they earned theirr living in
various ways - as they do today.
The copies of each book printed would have been in the region of
1000. How
do you know that the manuscripts belonged to amateurs.
Monica
Similarly manuscript collections were frequently for
> transmission of dances/songs to pupils. Incidentally amatuers in
this
> contemporary sense does not equate to unaccomplished singers - the
> affluent classes had the time as well as money to devote time to
the
> 'arts' and deveoped some proficiency. In any event these songs are
not
> Rossini coloratura arias
> .
>
> Martyn
> --- On Fri, 19/11/10, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Valdambrini's evidence
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[3]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Friday, 19 November, 2010, 12:41
>
> Sanseverino's six (dance-) songs are accompaniments to well-known
> > melodies.
> Obviously you haven't seen them. (They are not the same songs
> included in
> the 1620 edition). They are songs which were currently in the
> repertoire at
> the time - Rontani's Caldi sospiri to name but one. This had
apppeared
> with
> basso continuo in a song book printed in Florence in 1614 without
> alfabeto and was reprinted in Rome with
> alfabeto in 1623.
> > The songs of Marini, Berti and so many others were new
compositions,
> > provided with the harmony of a basso continuo. The alfabeto
> > could well have been inscribed by the composer himself, as we
assume
> of
> > Biagio Marini, for example.
> I am sure that it was and if you read what Marini has said and
study
> how he
> has added the alfabeto to the songs you can see that he had in mind
> something quite different from what you seem to think
> > [could we please have
> > this discussion in Dutch ?:~) ]
> Double Dutch perhaps. What you are saying sounds like pedantry
to
> me.
> what was going on in
> >> Surely they are one and the same?
> >
> > No they are not.
> I think you are mistaken. Most of these song books are not
intended
> for
> amateurs (although amateurs may have performed cf. Schubert
lieder).
> This is clear from the voice part. They are intended for
> accomplished singers - of whom there would have been a large number
in
> Italy
> where every church and cathedral had a body of professional
singers.
> > We cannot tell how someone like Foscarini, of whom we have no
songs,
> > would have shaped his accompaniment to a song by Marini or Landi.
But
> we
> > are
> > so fortunate to have his BC instructions, even if they are late.
> That is the point isn't it. They are included in the latest
> (surviving)
> edition of his work - 1640 - not the earlier one. But sources
from
> the 1620s tell a different
> story. We don't even know if he would ever have accompanied these
> songs - which according to you were going out of style by
1640. But
> some of the pieces in his 1629 book and that of Colonna are clearly
> intended to be accompaniments to songs in fashion at the time.
> Monica
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
4. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
