Who says I tune my guitar(s) at A440? I used this pitch in my analysis simply as a convenient reference point. But I don't think anybody would argue that a major third below A440 is an ideal historical pitch for guitars.
MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot <jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot <jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Chris Despopoulos" <despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:50 Carbonchi's instruction are for ensemble music (guitar in D). And about pitches, specificaly in XVIIth century in Italy, many papers of high scholarship had been written for years (inc. hauts et bas instruments): no use to have a debate here I think. But I agree ensemble pitches and solo pitches are not necesseraly coherent. So why do you use a 440 pitch to tune your guitar? With lower pitch, which is at least likely, other stringings are possible (personally for me 415 is a good one for Roman and middle Italy music). And again I have no problem with a high g gut string. (0;38 mm) Anyway, your choice is quite understandable: I'm just not quite happy for the moment with g in unison on my guitar (which is a very good one) with no bourdon on the 4th: this tuning is also very enjoyable. __________________________________________________________________ De : Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> A : Chris Despopoulos <[2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com>; jean-michel Catherinot <[3]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> Cc : Vihuelalist <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 15h 22min 53s Objet : Re: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? You write that 'almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions'. However, I am far less confident that we can say much about what absolute pitch standard these instruments were tuned to (which is why I tried to avoid it). But certainly a smaller instrument would have allowed a generally higher nominal pitch which would have made up for the deficiences in the bass register resulting from the shorter string length. But then you still end up with the problem of the third course exceeding the breaking stress - but just now at a generally higher pitch! MH --- On Tue, 23/11/10, jean-michel Catherinot <[5]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot <[6]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>, "Chris Despopoulos" <[8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tuesday, 23 November, 2010, 14:04 1/ Is 69 cm an usual diapason for early (around 1650) guitar: Koch is 61 cm or so, first generation of Voboam rather 65, Tessler is short too. Longer diapason is more common on later guitars or guitar `a la capucine, with a deeper body (lower tuning?) 2/ the Carbonchi Ms H72 in Perugia clearly says that the common guitar has his 3rd string tuned on the 6th course of the lute (g?) and the 5th key of the harpsichord (from C eg G). His guitar is tuned in D instead of E, almost surely at a=415 hz, pitch then in use in these regions. Plus the 4th course octave (F) on the lutes is more or less the same problem (what would you say about Frei and Maler instruments, with around 65cm diapason or more, at Venice pitch ?) So... But I agree there is no convincing evidence in the texts in favour of an octave on the G. It just sounds very well on my instrument, all in gut (Koch copy), with complete reetrant tuning. And surely it doesn't work for de Visee, nor the guitar! But even Corbetta before the guitare royale and Bartolotti sounds quite well like that, with convincing campanellas and not much gaps as 7th or 9th (specially with the g octave, but it's not my main reason to like this tuning). I only would like to have 3 guitars , with their own stringing, to play more music! __________________________________________________________________ De : Martyn Hodgson <[10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> A : Chris Despopoulos <[11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc : Vihuelalist <[12]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Envoye le : Mar 23 novembre 2010, 11h 15min 03s Objet : [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Whatever the case is for an octave on the third course (and to me it seems so very slim as to be negligible compared with all the evidence - other than our modern expectations of course) bear in mind the tensile strength of gut. An instrument with a string length of 69cm, say, would struggle to get up to g' at a tone under modern pitch. Whatever the 'historical' pitch it also seems clear that guitars were generally not tuned so near to breaking stress as lutes so a safety margin of a further tone is appropriate. In short, you'd need to tune a major third below modern to reasonably employ an octave third. This is, of course, one of the principal cases against an octave on the third course. M --- On Mon, 22/11/10, Chris Despopoulos <[1][13]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos <[2][14]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? To: "Monica Hall" <[3][15]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][16]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Monday, 22 November, 2010, 23:25 Thanks for the blessing of sorts... discretion being in the eye of the beholder and all that. Well then, I think it's either put a bordon on the D string, or sneak the upper octave G into my fingering for those passages. It's not a technical problem to accomplish either. What strikes me as so odd is that this is the only Sanz piece I found so far that causes any serious problems. I did play for a real Baroque guitarist (as opposed to myself -- an amateur) who suggested I try the French stringing, and who echoed your statement that Sanz is not writing anything in stone about stringing the instrument. But in general I like having the G as the lowest note for this music. cud __________________________________________________________________ From: Monica Hall <[1][5][17]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: Chris Despopoulos <[2][6][18]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3][7][19]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 2:22:36 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? That is why some people do argue that octave stringing on the 3rd course is intended. Gordon Ferries plays it on his CD with the re-entrant tuning. It works after a fashion but it is not the best track. I think the point is that Sanz doesn't explicitly say that all his music is intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. All he really doing is generally saying which tuning he thinks works best for which type of music. I think you can exercise a bit of discretion in these matters. Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Fuga Primera, por primer Tono al ayre Espanyol, the open G string in measures (counting from the tablaltura, and not counting the notated theme): 5 19 23 25 (Note the open G in 24 is not a problem, even though its leading is very similar) In these cases, I simply cannot hear a logical leading into the lower G... to my ear it desperately wants the upper octave G. I can play that upper octave on the E string, but that's not how it's written. There are other instances of ambiguous leading in this piece (and many others) where either octave could make sense. In those cases the lower octave is not a problem for me, and I find a careful emphasis makes those notes settle perfectly well into the piece. But these cited cases just don't work for me, no matter how hard I try to hear it. So far this is the only piece that troubles me in the Sanz books. But it really troubles me... I love it and want to fully understand it. Some people have suggested there's evidence that Sanz approved of and possibly used an octave-strung G course. I'm not convinced -- Anyway, that just pushes the whole issue onto another course and really doesn't help solve this raging argument about stringing/playing the guitar. Any advice you can offer on this piece is quite welcome! Cheers cud __________________________________________________________________ From: Monica Hall <[4][8][20]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: Chris Despopoulos <[5][9][21]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> Cc: Vihuelalist <[6][10][22]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 11:29:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? Which fugue is it? Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Despopoulos" <[4][7][11][23]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com> To: "wikla" <[5][8][12][24]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi> Cc: <[6][9][13][25]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 3:54 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant accepted by all? > In my experience, I would say nearly all Sanz definitely *works* with > fully re-entrant tuning. I find only one fugue that gives me any > problems... Every other piece I have tried so far sounds absolutely > great, and makes perfect sense in a fully re-entrant tuning. It takes > a little getting used to... Probably the most difficult pieces to play > are the ones you have played previously on a modern guitar. The logic > of the pieces may prove to be different than you initially thought. > But for all that, the logic is generally consistent... Except that one > darned fugue! > cud > __________________________________________________________________ > > From: Stuart Walsh <[7][10][14][26]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> > To: wikla <[8][11][15][27]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi> > Cc: [9][12][16][28]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 5:29:16 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Any b-guitar repertoire in all re-entrant > accepted by all? > > Dear flat-back lutenists, > > > > is there any repertoire/composer of baroque guitar that/who without > any > > modern disagreement definitely used the "double re-entrant" tuning - > the > > 5th and 4th having only in the upper octaves? De Visee perhaps? > An interesting question. I'd like to see a list too. And a more > contested list of what may well be music for this tuning, but not > actually specified. > I think these are definitely for the fully re-entrant tuning: > Valdambrini > Carre > some (?) Sanz > and?.... > Stuart > > To a theorbist with two top strings lowered an octave that setting > sounds > > really interesting - the opposite way of putting the fingerboard > strings > > sound a lot in the same octave! In a therbo in a from A to b, in > b-guitar > > in e from g to e'. > > > > In this interesting light just considering of getting a b-guitar... > :) > > > > Arto > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [1][10][13][17][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/ind ex.html > > > > -- > > References > > 1. [11][14][18][30]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.htm l > -- References 1. mailto:[15][19][31]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:[16][20][32]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:[17][21][33]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[18][22][34]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 5. mailto:[19][23][35]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 6. mailto:[20][24][36]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:[21][25][37]s.wa...@ntlworld.com 8. mailto:[22][26][38]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 9. mailto:[23][27][39]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. [24][28][40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. [25][29][41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [30][42]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali .co.uk 2. [31][43]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr i...@yah oo.com 3. [32][44]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dart mouth.e du 4. [33][45]http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali .co.uk 5. 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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 41. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 42. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 43. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah 44. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e 45. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 46. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah 47. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e 48. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=despopoulos_chr...@yah 49. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 50. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e 51. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 52. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 53. http://de.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e 54. 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