On 07/02/2011 08:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th century
French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the style
is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like
. M
There's a late 18th century diagram of a guitar fingerboard with the
the basses clearly not on the thumb side - and it's somewhere on the
early guitar ning site.
Stuart
--- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hall<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
To: "Martyn Hodgson"<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41
> Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any
early
> source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of
an
> octave pair - no response so far.
No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember
the
exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't
mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to
change the stringing.
Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this
morning
I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the
5th but
obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer
opportunities
to fit in ornamentation.
Monica
> From: Stewart McCoy<[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint
> To: "Vihuela List"<[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47
>
> Dear Martyn,
> Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect
of
> reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in
> evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute)
> stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave
to
> predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a
> note
> in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a
bass
> note on a duff gut string.
> There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a
course
> is
> used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre
> amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as
> --------------------------|-----
> --------------------------|--2--
> --------------------------|-----
> --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|-----
> --------------------------|-----
> --------------------------|-----
> but sounds as
> --------------------------|-----
> --------------------------|--2--
> --------------------------|-----
> --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|-----
> --------------------------|--0--
> --------------------------|-----
> The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at
the
> same time.
> Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility,
but
> unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard
only
> at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass
note,
> and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble
line
> (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high
octave,
> and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below.
> The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to
> overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing
serious
> pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities
of
> the
> upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse
> stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and
fifth
> courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says,
quoting
> Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell
from
> Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies
that at
> least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s.
> Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist
did.
> I
> am grateful to Monica for writing:
> "The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in
1677
> .. the earliest mention of the "French" tuning is in 1670 ..."
> Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about
> stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so
much
> controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our
intuition,
> and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my
> question
> about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of
high
> notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas).
> Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his recording of
music
> by Franc,ois Campion (Arion ARN68483) Michel Amoricis unfortunately
has
> a
> bourdon at the fifth course, which wreaks havoc with the
campanellas.
> Other times it is less clear what we should do. By coming to
different
> conclusions, we may be duplicating what actually happened in the
17th
> century, when guitarists will have had their own preferences,
depending
> on what music they were playing.
> Best wishes,
> Stewart.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[1][3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: 06 February 2011 08:55
> To: Vihuela List; Stewart McCoy
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint
> Dear Stewart,
>
> I agree with some of what you say (in particular perhaps Sanz was
> expressing a desire for the most 'modern' style even if still
composing
> some pieces with bourdons) but I think you overlook an obvious
> possibility when you write 'Why should the lower string of an
octave
> pair on the baroque guitar be placed on the treble side? This is
the
> other way round from the lute, and seems counter-intuitive. There
must
> be a difference in sound, or guitarists would not have strung their
> guitars that way. The only reason I can think why it was done, was
so
> that players could catch just the high octave with their right-hand
> thumb, which would be a huge advantage when playing campanellas.'
>
> The other reason for the disposition of the pair, and one which I
think
> is more significant, is that the string struck first with the thumb
> tends to predominate. So that on the lute, where a more
procrustean
> adherence to the rules of counterpoint/voice leading might have
been
> expected, it is the bass (the lower) of the octave pair which
> predominates whereas on the guitar with its peculiar tuning, the
upper
> of the pair tends to be heard primarily thus allowing an ambiguity
> which
> can deceive the ear.
>
> I'm really not convinced about selecting which octave of a pair to
> pluck, not so much that it can't be done - it clearly can - though
with
> trouble if the passage is rapid, but on the basis that there
seems to
> be no evidence that this was early practice. Or have I missed a
vital
> source? - I'm sure I'll be told if so.
>
> rgds
>
> M
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> --
>
> References
>
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References
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