I was speaking only of French practice, but you may be right - I'll
look at Ning
The French books which I have facsimiles are:
Merchi 1761 - stringing in staff notation seems to show doubled basses
- both low octaves. BUT in discussing pitching to accompany the voice
he says (I think? - better translation required plse) put the small La
at the most favourable pitch - implying an octave on at least the 5th -
but nothing about the high octave being in or out.
Bailleux 1773 - I think the implication here is that the bass of the
4th and 5th octave pair is outside but on reading it again I see he's
not actually quite so specific.
Baillon 1781 - stringing explained in the 'Avertissement'. - octaves
on 4th and 5th but now I look at this again he doesn't (I think) say
whether the high octaves are out or in. My schoolboy French is not up
to being certain of getting what he does say 100% correct - has anyone
a trans with which they are confident?)
Lemoine 1795 - seems to be for single strung 5 course
Sparks says Corrette 1763 shows the high octave on the 4th and 5th on
the outside - but I don't have a copy (is this the diagram perhaps?).
Also other schools certainly seemed to have continued with the thumb
striking the high octave first up to the end of the century (not the
reverse as Sparks says - I think maybe the common confusion of what is
meant by 'the first') Ferandiere's 6 course guitar has octave basses
with the highest outwards. ('The first two bourdons are called sextos,
with the different(ce) that the first is called sextillo, through being
thinner than the other, and it must be an octave higher; but both are
called E.' trans Brian Jeffery).
Mandoras (and gallichons if double) had the high octave on the inside
(like a lute in fact sometimes actually called 'demi-luth')
Martyn
.
--- On Mon, 7/2/11, Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: Stuart Walsh <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Vihuelalist"
<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 11:03
On 07/02/2011 08:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
> Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th
century
> French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the
style
> is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like
> . M
There's a late 18th century diagram of a guitar fingerboard with the
the basses clearly not on the thumb side - and it's somewhere on the
early guitar ning site.
Stuart
> --- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hall<[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall<[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
> To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41
>
> > Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there
was any
> early
> > source which mentioned selective plucking of individual
strings of
> an
> > octave pair - no response so far.
> No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't
remember
> the
> exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz
doesn't
> mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution
is to
> change the stringing.
> Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1
this
> morning
> I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on
the
> 5th but
> obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer
> opportunities
> to fit in ornamentation.
> Monica
> > From: Stewart McCoy<[1][5]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint
> > To: "Vihuela List"<[2][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47
> >
> > Dear Martyn,
> > Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the
effect
> of
> > reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be
more in
> > evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e.
lute)
> > stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high
octave
> to
> > predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high
octave as a
> > note
> > in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely
enhance a
> bass
> > note on a duff gut string.
> > There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of
a
> course
> > is
> > used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of
Haray tre
> > amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as
> > --------------------------|-----
> > --------------------------|--2--
> > --------------------------|-----
> > --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|-----
> > --------------------------|-----
> > --------------------------|-----
> > but sounds as
> > --------------------------|-----
> > --------------------------|--2--
> > --------------------------|-----
> > --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|-----
> > --------------------------|--0--
> > --------------------------|-----
> > The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a
treble at
> the
> > same time.
> > Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this
possibility,
> but
> > unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be
heard
> only
> > at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a
bass
> note,
> > and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the
treble
> line
> > (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the
high
> octave,
> > and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below.
> > The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are
attempts to
> > overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing
> serious
> > pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic
possibilities
> of
> > the
> > upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons.
Reverse
> > stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth
and
> fifth
> > courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica
says,
> quoting
> > Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We
cannot tell
> from
> > Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly
implies
> that at
> > least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s.
> > Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each
guitarist
> did.
> > I
> > am grateful to Monica for writing:
> > "The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de
Ribayaz in
> 1677
> > .. the earliest mention of the "French" tuning is in 1670
..."
> > Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing
written about
> > stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there
is so
> much
> > controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our
> intuition,
> > and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence
my
> > question
> > about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my
mention of
> high
> > notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas).
> > Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his
recording of
> music
> > by Franc,ois Campion (Arion ARN68483) Michel Amoricis
unfortunately
> has
> > a
> > bourdon at the fifth course, which wreaks havoc with the
> campanellas.
> > Other times it is less clear what we should do. By coming to
> different
> > conclusions, we may be duplicating what actually happened in
the
> 17th
> > century, when guitarists will have had their own
preferences,
> depending
> > on what music they were playing.
> > Best wishes,
> > Stewart.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martyn Hodgson
[mailto:[1][3][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Sent: 06 February 2011 08:55
> > To: Vihuela List; Stewart McCoy
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint
> > Dear Stewart,
> >
> > I agree with some of what you say (in particular perhaps
Sanz was
> > expressing a desire for the most 'modern' style even if
still
> composing
> > some pieces with bourdons) but I think you overlook an
obvious
> > possibility when you write 'Why should the lower string of
an
> octave
> > pair on the baroque guitar be placed on the treble side?
This is
> the
> > other way round from the lute, and seems counter-intuitive.
There
> must
> > be a difference in sound, or guitarists would not have
strung their
> > guitars that way. The only reason I can think why it was
done, was
> so
> > that players could catch just the high octave with their
right-hand
> > thumb, which would be a huge advantage when playing
campanellas.'
> >
> > The other reason for the disposition of the pair, and one
which I
> think
> > is more significant, is that the string struck first with
the thumb
> > tends to predominate. So that on the lute, where a more
> procrustean
> > adherence to the rules of counterpoint/voice leading might
have
> been
> > expected, it is the bass (the lower) of the octave pair
which
> > predominates whereas on the guitar with its peculiar tuning,
the
> upper
> > of the pair tends to be heard primarily thus allowing an
ambiguity
> > which
> > can deceive the ear.
> >
> > I'm really not convinced about selecting which octave of a
pair to
> > pluck, not so much that it can't be done - it clearly can -
though
> with
> > trouble if the passage is rapid, but on the basis that
there
> seems to
> > be no evidence that this was early practice. Or have I
missed a
> vital
> > source? - I'm sure I'll be told if so.
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > M
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[2][4][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> >
>
[5][9]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo.
co.
> uk
> > 2.
[6][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[11]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
> 2.
[12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 3.
[13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 4. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 5.
[15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lu...@tiscali.co.uk
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
