Hello Martyn
Well - I prefer an F maj chord here not only because it is what M (or
whoever) plainly indicates in the alfabeto but also because it provides
a more effective combination with the upper vocal D to give a 65 chord
without weakening the effect by unecessarily doubling the harmony on
the guitar - I think this is what the 'arranger' had in mind.
I think you are guilty of not reading what I have said! Which is that - I
do not think that the guitar alfabeto is to be played with the bass part in
the Marini songs. The alfabeto is irrelevant. The voice part and bass
part together imply - in modern academic speak - the 1st inversion of the
minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale. That is what I would play
(and repeat if pressed) if accompanying the piece on the keyboard or on the
theorbo if I had one and knew how to play it.
Imposing a the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale onto the root
of the dominant creates an even better dissonance than an F major chord. A
chord of the dominant 9th with a 4-3 suspension to be precise rather than a
measly dominant 7th.
Since the F chord is either played with a vocal D or a transient bass G
I can't agree the music is poorer because it 'moves into the major mode
sooner' (in any case, to be fair to the numerous composers who used
the unadorned sequence Subdom, Dom, Tonic there's nothing 'wrong' with
this simple cadential formula).
In a minor key - this piece is in "C minor" - the triad on the subdominant
has a minor 3rd. The guitar chord is not going to be imposed on the not
so transient G in the bass (it lasts thoughout the whole bar!) - if I
am playing it because I wont be including a G in the chord or employing a
bass player of any sort!
There's no general(NB) prohibition against employing a bass instrument
(tiorba, bowed bass, etc) with a strummed guitar to play an independent
melodic bass line if one is written (especially if it has some interest
as in Il Verno).
Again you haven't read what I have been saying. I don't think that it is
in keeping with what was considered to be
stylistically appropriate when accompanying these songs. I don't know
about general prohibitions but in fact there are no instructions about this
at all in any of the books as far as I am aware. However - Marini has
indicated that the ritorneli are for violin and
chitarrone - no mention of a separate bass instrument.
But, as previously said, would naturally eschew an
additional bass instrument in songs with just alfabeto accompaniment
Are there any early 17th century Italian solo songs with only alfabeto
accompaniment?
Incidentally, on subject of theorbo or bowed bass, last weekend played
in works from Cavalli's 1666 collection Musiche Sacre - later than the
period we're looking at - but interesting that it not only does it have
a bc part for organo but an independent (in parts) part for small
violone OR theorbo (' Violoncino, overo, Tiorba').
But not presumably one for baroque guitar although it wouldn't surprise me
to learn that the conductor thought it might be a good idea to include one -
or even two!
As ever
Monica
--- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 14:55
Dear Martyn
> And yes, yet again, I would hold (repeat if necessary) the Fmaj
chord
> over the passing dissonant g in the bass to then resolve through
the 43
> cadence.
I don't understand why would you play an F major chord at all. If I
were playing the theorbo or keyboard (I have tried in on the keyboard)
I would play a D7 minor 1st inversion chord on the bass note F - which
is what the voice and bass parts imply - and repeat it on the bass note
G.
If I were playing the guitar I would not have a separate bass player at
all because as I have said I don't think that is what is
intended. But there is also another point which I think is important
- with the guitar playing a plain F major chord the music moves into
the major mode sooner - creating a different effect - there is no
dissonance in the guitar part aside from the 4-3 suspension.
The problem is that it all time....
Regards with a smile
Monica
> --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early
17th
> century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:17
>
> Dear Martyn,
> >
> > The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a
bass
> F
> That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a minor
7th
> chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very
common
> in this
> repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are
D F A C. C
> is
> the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it is
> immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a passing
note
> (and
> it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural). The
other
> three
> notes define the chord.
> > However on the guitar, where common
> > alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger
is
> > obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th
in
> the
> > upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the
guitar
> (ie an
> > F major chord).
> Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far
> as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here.
> > in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the
> harmony
> > over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit
> more
> > harmonic frisson.
> I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part.
> Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You
> seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord -
omitting
> the D - which is no longer present in the voice part. What I
would do
> is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined
to
> omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no
> problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th.
> > So coming full circle to our original
> > discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674
> collection:
> > page 10 second half of bar 13:
> But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major 7th
chord
> on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with
> combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass.
> > Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was
> > accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very
> pieces
> > for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much
earlier
> in
> > this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever)
> didn't
> > therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his
1622
> > collection is beyond me
> I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only
played
> alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional
> alfabeto chords.
> > Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now
rather
> more
> > convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar
sols
> (tho'
> > might have been played as such):
> Well - yes I agree with that.
> Rgds
> Monica
> > --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in
early
> 17th
> > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18
> >
> > Dear Martyn
> > > It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord
held
> over a
> > G
> > > which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary
> passing
> > > dissonance which is then resolved.
> > But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The
note in
> the
> > voice part
> > is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D
> minor
> > chord -
> > F A D. If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is
still
> > singing
> > D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th
> > chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C.
> > The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant
surely
> - in
> > fact
> > it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it
> rather
> > than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate
harmony
> > with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even
> think of
> > playing an F major chord there?
> > The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first
chord
> can
> > also belong to
> > the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me
> > inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which
> > conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses are
> > completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part of
the
> > problem.
> > > I'm slowly losing the will to live .......
> > It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical
> example
> > and an instrument to hand.
> > Regards
> > Monica
> > > --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall
<[1][5][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Monica Hall <[2][6][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in
> early
> > 17th
> > > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> > > To: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[3][7][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40
> > >
> > > > Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're
wrong
> and
> > are
> > > > imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier
> style.
> > > Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the
perfect
> > solution
> > > for
> > > me at least.
> > > On F you play iib7
> > > On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part
are
> the
> > the
> > > dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the
7th
> and
> > the
> > > 4th are
> > > prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the
> > cadence.
> > > Not being a continuo player these solutions are not
immediatly
> > obvious
> > > to me
> > > and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th
> century I
> > > don't
> > > know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the
> > > accomapniment.
> > > O happy day - the sun is shining.
> > > Rgds
> > > Monica
> > > > >> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and
> bass)
> > were
> > > > later
> > > > >> added.
> > > > I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were
> created
> > out
> > > of
> > > > the
> > > > blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing
> well
> > > defined
> > > > alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the
basis
> of
> > some
> > > of
> > > > the
> > > > songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate
is
> that
> > > rather
> > > > than
> > > > just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless
of
> the
> > > voice
> > > > part
> > > > whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some
success
> to
> > fit
> > > well
> > > > defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly
> I IV I
> > to
> > > the
> > > > melodies with their bass lines.
> > > > >> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in
just
> the
> > > upper
> > > > part
> > > > >> is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire
(vocal
> and
> > > > >> instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente,
> > Falconierio
> > > et
> > > > al. It
> > > > >> also works very well in practice. We should not
always
> aim
> > to
> > > > smooth
> > > > >> out these passing things as the 19th/20th century
> > arrangers
> > > > sometimes
> > > > >> attempted.
> > > > It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied
does
> not
> > make
> > > > sense.
> > > > The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard
and
> occurs
> > > > frequently
> > > > in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3
suspension
> in
> > the
> > > > guitar part -
> > > > because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you
give
> me
> > an
> > > > instance
> > > > where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way
that
> you
> > think
> > > they
> > > > should be here. What notes would you add to the g in
the
> bass
> > > when
> > > > the melody
> > > > has f-c.
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola
would
> > coincide,
> > > > while
> > > > > with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty.
> > > > The difficulty is determining what the correct bass
note
> and
> > > harmony
> > > > is.
> > > > It has nothing to do with the alfabeto.
> > > > Regards
> > > > Monica
> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > > >
> > [1][1][5][9][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/ind
ex.html
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > References
> > > >
> > > > 1.
> [2][6][10][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm
l
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1.
> [7][11][15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > 2.
> [8][12][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> [13][17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 2.
> [14][18]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 3.
> >
> [15][19]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 4.
> [16][20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 5.
[17][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 6.
[18][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 7.
[19][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 8.
[20][24]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 2.
[26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 3.
>
[27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 4.
[28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
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> 6.
[30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 7.
>
[31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
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du
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> 14.
[38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 15.
>
[39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
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du
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>
--
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