Good afternoon Monica, I did read your email - I just don't agree with you that the bass part in Marini 1622 is never to be played when the guitar strums alfabeto - sorry.... I also prefer the F chord as notated - for the reasons given.
Ditto to you about not reading emails - see what I wrote about using a tiorba. You are also wrong in not considering the tiorba a 'bass instrument'; - by bass instrument I don't think the Old Ones automatically thought - aha! - this means a bowed bass! Pip! pip! Martyn --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 12:41 Hello Martyn > Well - I prefer an F maj chord here not only because it is what M (or > whoever) plainly indicates in the alfabeto but also because it provides > a more effective combination with the upper vocal D to give a 65 chord > without weakening the effect by unecessarily doubling the harmony on > the guitar - I think this is what the 'arranger' had in mind. I think you are guilty of not reading what I have said! Which is that - I do not think that the guitar alfabeto is to be played with the bass part in the Marini songs. The alfabeto is irrelevant. The voice part and bass part together imply - in modern academic speak - the 1st inversion of the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale. That is what I would play (and repeat if pressed) if accompanying the piece on the keyboard or on the theorbo if I had one and knew how to play it. Imposing a the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale onto the root of the dominant creates an even better dissonance than an F major chord. A chord of the dominant 9th with a 4-3 suspension to be precise rather than a measly dominant 7th. > > Since the F chord is either played with a vocal D or a transient bass G > I can't agree the music is poorer because it 'moves into the major mode > sooner' (in any case, to be fair to the numerous composers who used > the unadorned sequence Subdom, Dom, Tonic there's nothing 'wrong' with > this simple cadential formula). In a minor key - this piece is in "C minor" - the triad on the subdominant has a minor 3rd. The guitar chord is not going to be imposed on the not so transient G in the bass (it lasts thoughout the whole bar!) - if I am playing it because I wont be including a G in the chord or employing a bass player of any sort! > There's no general(NB) prohibition against employing a bass instrument > (tiorba, bowed bass, etc) with a strummed guitar to play an independent > melodic bass line if one is written (especially if it has some interest > as in Il Verno). Again you haven't read what I have been saying. I don't think that it is in keeping with what was considered to be stylistically appropriate when accompanying these songs. I don't know about general prohibitions but in fact there are no instructions about this at all in any of the books as far as I am aware. However - Marini has indicated that the ritorneli are for violin and chitarrone - no mention of a separate bass instrument. But, as previously said, would naturally eschew an > additional bass instrument in songs with just alfabeto accompaniment Are there any early 17th century Italian solo songs with only alfabeto accompaniment? > Incidentally, on subject of theorbo or bowed bass, last weekend played > in works from Cavalli's 1666 collection Musiche Sacre - later than the > period we're looking at - but interesting that it not only does it have > a bc part for organo but an independent (in parts) part for small > violone OR theorbo (' Violoncino, overo, Tiorba'). But not presumably one for baroque guitar although it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the conductor thought it might be a good idea to include one - or even two! As ever Monica > > > --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 14:55 > > Dear Martyn > > And yes, yet again, I would hold (repeat if necessary) the Fmaj > chord > > over the passing dissonant g in the bass to then resolve through > the 43 > > cadence. > I don't understand why would you play an F major chord at all. If I > were playing the theorbo or keyboard (I have tried in on the keyboard) > I would play a D7 minor 1st inversion chord on the bass note F - which > is what the voice and bass parts imply - and repeat it on the bass note > G. > If I were playing the guitar I would not have a separate bass player at > all because as I have said I don't think that is what is > intended. But there is also another point which I think is important > - with the guitar playing a plain F major chord the music moves into > the major mode sooner - creating a different effect - there is no > dissonance in the guitar part aside from the 4-3 suspension. > The problem is that it all time.... > Regards with a smile > Monica > > --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > > > From: Monica Hall <[2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early > 17th > > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:17 > > > > Dear Martyn, > > > > > > The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a > bass > > F > > That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a minor > 7th > > chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very > common > > in this > > repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are > D F A C. C > > is > > the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it is > > immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a passing > note > > (and > > it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural). The > other > > three > > notes define the chord. > > > However on the guitar, where common > > > alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger > is > > > obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th > in > > the > > > upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the > guitar > > (ie an > > > F major chord). > > Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far > > as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here. > > > in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the > > harmony > > > over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit > > more > > > harmonic frisson. > > I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part. > > Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You > > seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord - > omitting > > the D - which is no longer present in the voice part. What I > would do > > is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined > to > > omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no > > problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th. > > > So coming full circle to our original > > > discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 > > collection: > > > page 10 second half of bar 13: > > But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major 7th > chord > > on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with > > combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass. > > > Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was > > > accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very > > pieces > > > for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much > earlier > > in > > > this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) > > didn't > > > therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his > 1622 > > > collection is beyond me > > I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only > played > > alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional > > alfabeto chords. > > > Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now > rather > > more > > > convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar > sols > > (tho' > > > might have been played as such): > > Well - yes I agree with that. > > Rgds > > Monica > > > --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall <[1][5][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > wrote: > > > > > > From: Monica Hall <[2][6][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in > early > > 17th > > > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin > > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][7][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18 > > > > > > Dear Martyn > > > > It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord > held > > over a > > > G > > > > which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary > > passing > > > > dissonance which is then resolved. > > > But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The > note in > > the > > > voice part > > > is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D > > minor > > > chord - > > > F A D. If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is > still > > > singing > > > D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th > > > chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C. > > > The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant > surely > > - in > > > fact > > > it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it > > rather > > > than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate > harmony > > > with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even > > think of > > > playing an F major chord there? > > > The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first > chord > > can > > > also belong to > > > the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me > > > inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which > > > conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses are > > > completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part of > the > > > problem. > > > > I'm slowly losing the will to live ....... > > > It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical > > example > > > and an instrument to hand. > > > Regards > > > Monica > > > > --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall > <[1][5][9][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Monica Hall <[2][6][10][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in > > early > > > 17th > > > > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin > > > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" > <[3][7][11][15]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > > > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8][12][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > > Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40 > > > > > > > > > Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're > wrong > > and > > > are > > > > > imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier > > style. > > > > Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the > perfect > > > solution > > > > for > > > > me at least. > > > > On F you play iib7 > > > > On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part > are > > the > > > the > > > > dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the > 7th > > and > > > the > > > > 4th are > > > > prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the > > > cadence. > > > > Not being a continuo player these solutions are not > immediatly > > > obvious > > > > to me > > > > and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th > > century I > > > > don't > > > > know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the > > > > accomapniment. > > > > O happy day - the sun is shining. > > > > Rgds > > > > Monica > > > > > >> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and > > bass) > > > were > > > > > later > > > > > >> added. > > > > > I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were > > created > > > out > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing > > well > > > > defined > > > > > alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the > basis > > of > > > some > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate > is > > that > > > > rather > > > > > than > > > > > just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless > of > > the > > > > voice > > > > > part > > > > > whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some > success > > to > > > fit > > > > well > > > > > defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly > > I IV I > > > to > > > > the > > > > > melodies with their bass lines. > > > > > >> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in > just > > the > > > > upper > > > > > part > > > > > >> is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire > (vocal > > and > > > > > >> instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, > > > Falconierio > > > > et > > > > > al. It > > > > > >> also works very well in practice. We should not > always > > aim > > > to > > > > > smooth > > > > > >> out these passing things as the 19th/20th century > > > arrangers > > > > > sometimes > > > > > >> attempted. > > > > > It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied > does > > not > > > make > > > > > sense. > > > > > The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard > and > > occurs > > > > > frequently > > > > > in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 > suspension > > in > > > the > > > > > guitar part - > > > > > because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you > give > > me > > > an > > > > > instance > > > > > where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way > that > > you > > > think > > > > they > > > > > should be here. What notes would you add to the g in > the > > bass > > > > when > > > > > the melody > > > > > has f-c. > > > > > > > > > > > > Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola > would > > > coincide, > > > > > while > > > > > > with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty. > > > > > The difficulty is determining what the correct bass > note > > and > > > > harmony > > > > > is. > > > > > It has nothing to do with the alfabeto. > > > > > Regards > > > > > Monica > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > > > > > > [1][1][5][9][13][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-a dmin/ind > ex.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > References > > > > > > > > > > 1. > > [2][6][10][14][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/i ndex.htm > l > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > References > > > > > > > > 1. > > [7][11][15][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/inde x.html > > > > 2. > > [8][12][16][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/inde x.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > References > > > > > > 1. > > [13][17][21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhal l@tiscal > i.co.uk > > > 2. > > [14][18][22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhal l@tiscal > i.co.uk > > > 3. > > > > > [15][19][23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgso nmartyn@ > yahoo.co > > .uk > > > 4. > > [16][20][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuel a...@cs.dar > tmouth.e > > du > > > 5. > [17][21][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 6. > [18][22][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 7. > [19][23][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 8. > [20][24][28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. > [25][29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal i.co.uk > > 2. > [26][30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal i.co.uk > > 3. > > > [27][31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@ yahoo.co > .uk > > 4. > [28][32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar tmouth.e > du > > 5. > [29][33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal i.co.uk > > 6. > [30][34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal i.co.uk > > 7. > > > [31][35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@ yahoo.co > .uk > > 8. > [32][36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar tmouth.e > du > > 9. 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http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co 44. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e 45. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 46. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 47. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 49. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 50. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 51. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 52. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 53. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 54. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 55. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 56. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 57. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 58. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 59. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 60. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 61. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 62. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 63. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 64. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 65. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 66. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 67. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co 68. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e 69. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 70. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 71. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 72. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 73. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 74. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 75. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 76. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 77. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 78. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 79. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 80. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 81. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 82. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 83. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 84. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 85. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 86. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 87. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 88. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 89. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 90. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 91. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 92. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html