Ditto to you about not reading emails - see what I wrote about using a
tiorba. You are also wrong in not considering the tiorba a 'bass
instrument'; - by bass instrument I don't think the Old Ones
automatically thought - aha! - this means a bowed bass!
Pip! pip!
Martyn
--- On Wed, 27/4/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 12:41
Hello Martyn
> Well - I prefer an F maj chord here not only because it is what M
(or
> whoever) plainly indicates in the alfabeto but also because it
provides
> a more effective combination with the upper vocal D to give a 65
chord
> without weakening the effect by unecessarily doubling the harmony
on
> the guitar - I think this is what the 'arranger' had in mind.
I think you are guilty of not reading what I have said! Which is that
- I
do not think that the guitar alfabeto is to be played with the bass
part in
the Marini songs. The alfabeto is irrelevant. The voice part and
bass
part together imply - in modern academic speak - the 1st inversion of
the
minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale. That is what I would
play
(and repeat if pressed) if accompanying the piece on the keyboard or on
the
theorbo if I had one and knew how to play it.
Imposing a the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale onto the
root
of the dominant creates an even better dissonance than an F major
chord. A
chord of the dominant 9th with a 4-3 suspension to be precise rather
than a
measly dominant 7th.
>
> Since the F chord is either played with a vocal D or a transient
bass G
> I can't agree the music is poorer because it 'moves into the major
mode
> sooner' (in any case, to be fair to the numerous composers who
used
> the unadorned sequence Subdom, Dom, Tonic there's nothing 'wrong'
with
> this simple cadential formula).
In a minor key - this piece is in "C minor" - the triad on the
subdominant
has a minor 3rd. The guitar chord is not going to be imposed on the
not
so transient G in the bass (it lasts thoughout the whole bar!) - if I
am playing it because I wont be including a G in the chord or employing
a
bass player of any sort!
> There's no general(NB) prohibition against employing a bass
instrument
> (tiorba, bowed bass, etc) with a strummed guitar to play an
independent
> melodic bass line if one is written (especially if it has some
interest
> as in Il Verno).
Again you haven't read what I have been saying. I don't think that
it is
in keeping with what was considered to be
stylistically appropriate when accompanying these songs. I don't know
about general prohibitions but in fact there are no instructions about
this
at all in any of the books as far as I am aware. However - Marini has
indicated that the ritorneli are for violin and
chitarrone - no mention of a separate bass instrument.
But, as previously said, would naturally eschew an
> additional bass instrument in songs with just alfabeto
accompaniment
Are there any early 17th century Italian solo songs with only alfabeto
accompaniment?
> Incidentally, on subject of theorbo or bowed bass, last weekend
played
> in works from Cavalli's 1666 collection Musiche Sacre - later than
the
> period we're looking at - but interesting that it not only does it
have
> a bc part for organo but an independent (in parts) part for small
> violone OR theorbo (' Violoncino, overo, Tiorba').
But not presumably one for baroque guitar although it wouldn't surprise
me
to learn that the conductor thought it might be a good idea to include
one -
or even two!
As ever
Monica
>
>
> --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata
etc)
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 14:55
>
> Dear Martyn
> > And yes, yet again, I would hold (repeat if necessary) the Fmaj
> chord
> > over the passing dissonant g in the bass to then resolve
through
> the 43
> > cadence.
> I don't understand why would you play an F major chord at all. If
I
> were playing the theorbo or keyboard (I have tried in on the
keyboard)
> I would play a D7 minor 1st inversion chord on the bass note F -
which
> is what the voice and bass parts imply - and repeat it on the bass
note
> G.
> If I were playing the guitar I would not have a separate bass
player at
> all because as I have said I don't think that is what is
> intended. But there is also another point which I think is
important
> - with the guitar playing a plain F major chord the music moves
into
> the major mode sooner - creating a different effect - there is no
> dissonance in the guitar part aside from the 4-3 suspension.
> The problem is that it all time....
> Regards with a smile
> Monica
> > --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall <[1][5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> >
> > From: Monica Hall <[2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in
early
> 17th
> > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:17
> >
> > Dear Martyn,
> > >
> > > The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord
on a
> bass
> > F
> > That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a
minor
> 7th
> > chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very
> common
> > in this
> > repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are
> D F A C. C
> > is
> > the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it
is
> > immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a
passing
> note
> > (and
> > it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E
natural). The
> other
> > three
> > notes define the chord.
> > > However on the guitar, where common
> > > alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the
arranger
> is
> > > obliged to use what is available: since there is already a
6th
> in
> > the
> > > upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the
> guitar
> > (ie an
> > > F major chord).
> > Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far
> > as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here.
> > > in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended
the
> > harmony
> > > over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a
bit
> > more
> > > harmonic frisson.
> > I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part.
> > Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass.
You
> > seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord -
> omitting
> > the D - which is no longer present in the voice part. What I
> would do
> > is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first
inclined
> to
> > omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no
> > problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th.
> > > So coming full circle to our original
> > > discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674
> > collection:
> > > page 10 second half of bar 13:
> > But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major
7th
> chord
> > on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4
with
> > combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass.
> > > Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar
was
> > > accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these
very
> > pieces
> > > for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much
> earlier
> > in
> > > this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or
whoever)
> > didn't
> > > therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in
his
> 1622
> > > collection is beyond me
> > I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only
> played
> > alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only
occasional
> > alfabeto chords.
> > > Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now
> rather
> > more
> > > convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as
guitar
> sols
> > (tho'
> > > might have been played as such):
> > Well - yes I agree with that.
> > Rgds
> > Monica
> > > --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall
<[1][5][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Monica Hall <[2][6][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in
> early
> > 17th
> > > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> > > To: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[3][7][11]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4][8][12]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18
> > >
> > > Dear Martyn
> > > > It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord
> held
> > over a
> > > G
> > > > which is anticipating the cadence and creating a
momentary
> > passing
> > > > dissonance which is then resolved.
> > > But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The
> note in
> > the
> > > voice part
> > > is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of
a D
> > minor
> > > chord -
> > > F A D. If you are going to play F A C, the voice part
is
> still
> > > singing
> > > D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th
> > > chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C.
> > > The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant
> surely
> > - in
> > > fact
> > > it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have
chosen it
> > rather
> > > than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate
> harmony
> > > with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you
even
> > think of
> > > playing an F major chord there?
> > > The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first
> chord
> > can
> > > also belong to
> > > the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me
> > > inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it
which
> > > conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses
are
> > > completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part
of
> the
> > > problem.
> > > > I'm slowly losing the will to live .......
> > > It is very difficult to discuss these things without
musical
> > example
> > > and an instrument to hand.
> > > Regards
> > > Monica
> > > > --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall
> <[1][5][9][13]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > From: Monica Hall
<[2][6][10][14]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs
in
> > early
> > > 17th
> > > > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> > > > To: "Martyn Hodgson"
> <[3][7][11][15]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> > > > Cc: "Vihuelalist"
<[4][8][12][16]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > > Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40
> > > >
> > > > > Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're
> wrong
> > and
> > > are
> > > > > imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an
earlier
> > style.
> > > > Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the
> perfect
> > > solution
> > > > for
> > > > me at least.
> > > > On F you play iib7
> > > > On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice
part
> are
> > the
> > > the
> > > > dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both
the
> 7th
> > and
> > > the
> > > > 4th are
> > > > prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at
the
> > > cadence.
> > > > Not being a continuo player these solutions are not
> immediatly
> > > obvious
> > > > to me
> > > > and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or
17th
> > century I
> > > > don't
> > > > know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in
the
> > > > accomapniment.
> > > > O happy day - the sun is shining.
> > > > Rgds
> > > > Monica
> > > > > >> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes
(and
> > bass)
> > > were
> > > > > later
> > > > > >> added.
> > > > > I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences
were
> > created
> > > out
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > blue and then melodies added to them. Rather
existing
> > well
> > > > defined
> > > > > alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as
the
> basis
> > of
> > > some
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > songs. The other point which Dean tries to
illustrate
> is
> > that
> > > > rather
> > > > > than
> > > > > just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line
regardless
> of
> > the
> > > > voice
> > > > > part
> > > > > whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some
> success
> > to
> > > fit
> > > > well
> > > > > defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly
> > I IV I
> > > to
> > > > the
> > > > > melodies with their bass lines.
> > > > > >> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola
in
> just
> > the
> > > > upper
> > > > > part
> > > > > >> is by no means unkown in the Italian
repertoire
> (vocal
> > and
> > > > > >> instrumental) of the period. Look at
Bounamente,
> > > Falconierio
> > > > et
> > > > > al. It
> > > > > >> also works very well in practice. We should
not
> always
> > aim
> > > to
> > > > > smooth
> > > > > >> out these passing things as the 19th/20th
century
> > > arrangers
> > > > > sometimes
> > > > > >> attempted.
> > > > > It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied
> does
> > not
> > > make
> > > > > sense.
> > > > > The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely
standard
> and
> > occurs
> > > > > frequently
> > > > > in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3
> suspension
> > in
> > > the
> > > > > guitar part -
> > > > > because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can
you
> give
> > me
> > > an
> > > > > instance
> > > > > where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way
> that
> > you
> > > think
> > > > they
> > > > > should be here. What notes would you add to the g
in
> the
> > bass
> > > > when
> > > > > the melody
> > > > > has f-c.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola
> would
> > > coincide,
> > > > > while
> > > > > > with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more
difficulty.
> > > > > The difficulty is determining what the correct bass
> note
> > and
> > > > harmony
> > > > > is.
> > > > > It has nothing to do with the alfabeto.
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > Monica
> > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information
at
> > > > > >
> > > [1][1][5][9][13][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-a
dmin/ind
> ex.html
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > References
> > > > >
> > > > > 1.
> > [2][6][10][14][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/i
ndex.htm
> l
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > References
> > > >
> > > > 1.
> > [7][11][15][19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/inde
x.html
> > > > 2.
> > [8][12][16][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/inde
x.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1.
> > [13][17][21]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhal
l@tiscal
> i.co.uk
> > > 2.
> > [14][18][22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhal
l@tiscal
> i.co.uk
> > > 3.
> > >
> > [15][19][23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgso
nmartyn@
> yahoo.co
> > .uk
> > > 4.
> > [16][20][24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuel
a...@cs.dar
> tmouth.e
> > du
> > > 5.
> [17][21][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > 6.
> [18][22][26]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > 7.
> [19][23][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > > 8.
> [20][24][28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1.
> [25][29]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 2.
> [26][30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 3.
> >
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yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 4.
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tmouth.e
> du
> > 5.
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i.co.uk
> > 6.
> [30][34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 7.
> >
> [31][35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 8.
> [32][36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 9.
[33][37]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 10.
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> > 11.
[35][39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 12.
[36][40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 13.
> [37][41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 14.
> [38][42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
i.co.uk
> > 15.
> >
> [39][43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
yahoo.co
> .uk
> > 16.
> [40][44]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dar
tmouth.e
> du
> > 17.
[41][45]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 18.
[42][46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 19.
[43][47]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > 20.
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> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
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> 2.
[50]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 3.
>
[51]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 4.
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du
> 5.
[53]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 6.
[54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 7.
>
[55]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 8.
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du
> 9.
[57]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 10.
[58]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 11.
>
[59]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
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> 17.
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> 26.
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>
[75]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
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> 30.
[78]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
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>
[79]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
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du
> 33. [81]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 34. [82]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 35. [83]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 36. [84]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 37.
[85]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 38.
[86]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 39.
>
[87]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 40.
[88]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 41. [89]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 42. [90]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 43. [91]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 44. [92]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
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2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3.
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22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlhall@tiscal
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@
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56. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
57. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
58. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
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60. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
61. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
62. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
63. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
64. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
65. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
66. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
67. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
68. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
69. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
70. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
71. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
72. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
73. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
74. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
75.
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76. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
77. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
78. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
79.
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80. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
81. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
82. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
83. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
84. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
85. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
86. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
87.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
88. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
89. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
90. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
91. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
92. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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