Dear Monica,
I'm not sure we are at cross purposes since we all seem to agree that
nothing is certain about what precise instrument Agazzari had in mind
and whether he might have come accross the chitarra spagnuola (and
implied it in his 'etcetera').
Of course Foscarini's publications come a couple of decades after
Agazzari's writings
but we do know the chitarra spagnuola (or very similar term) seems to
have been known even before then. Christofano Malvezzi, in his
publication Intermedi et concerti (Venice, 1591) describes performers
and instruments used in the Florentine intermedi of 1589.
Cavalieri's acclaimed ''O che nouvo miracolo' (aka later as 'Aria del
Gran Duca') has 'Vittoria Archilei, Luccia Caccini, e Margherita' and
even lists the instruments they played:
'e sounavao Vittoria, e Lucia, una Chitarrina per uno, una alla
Spagnola, e l'altra alla Napolettana, ............'.
Does 'Chitarrina' here really mean a not-guitar shaped instrument? I
suggest we need
to be very careful about assuming a degree of standardisation of such
terms at this time. And does 'Chitarrina' also necessarily imply a
small instrument (either 'alla Spagnola' or 'alla Napolettana') or is
it a reference to a guitar generally in this source?
I've always taken the Intermedi record to mean a Chittara Spagnuola (5
course) and
a small 4 course guitar (as described by Cerreto in his 1601 Neapolitan
publication). Else why bother so much to differentiate between the two
('alla Spagnola' / ' alla Napolettana')?
I recall the subject of guitars in the Florentine Intermedi has
also been discussed elswhere (and perhaps even on this list) sometime
ago - but I can't put my hand on the relevant paper at the moment - can
you?
Martyn
--- On Mon, 12/12/11, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lex Eisenhardt"
<eisenha...@planet.nl>, "R. Mattes" <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 12:49
We seem to have got a bit at cross purposes here - at least I have.
Agazzari's book was printed in 1607 as far as I am aware. Only one
year
after Montesardo. Foscarini's book in mixed style was printed in
about
1630 and the version of which includes the continuo instructions was
printed
in 1640.
I think that it is unlikely that Agazzari was familiar with the
chitarra
spagnuola and had it in mind
when he wrote his book. And he includes the chitarrina amongst the
instruments which are not capable of reproducing the bass line. I
can't
see any reason for regarding it as a guitar at all. It was surely a
small
lute?
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>;
<[3]eisen...@planet.nl>; "R.
Mattes" <[4]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 12:02 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re: Agazzari
guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
>
>
> Thank you for this - you must have missed my qualifying rider:
'albeit
> later sources' expressing that I am well aware these sources are
not
> contemporary with Agazzari. And of course you're quite right they
do
> not constitute evidence of what Agazzari was aware. The point is
that
> plucking and strumming play was known throughout the early
(Foscarini)
> and later 17th century so it is not possible on the available
evidence
> to state that Aggazzari expected strumming alone - even if he
allowed
> the guitar in basso continuo.......
>
> MH
>
> --- On Mon, 12/12/11, R. Mattes <[5]r...@mh-freiburg.de> wrote:
>
> From: R. Mattes <[6]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Return to earlier question: {was Re:
Agazzari
> guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
"Vihuelalist"
> <[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, [9]eisen...@planet.nl
> Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 11:44
>
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:28:52 +0000 (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote
> > Thanks Lex
> >
> > Maybe, but plucking to perform basso continuo on the guitar
was
> > not unknown if that's what Agazzi really meant (and I'm not
> > convinced we can interpret his description as excluding BC
using
> > full chords only - eg strummed). Indeed, there are even some,
> > allbeit later, sources
> > (Matteis, Murcia) which give detailed instructions on playing
> > guitar BC employing only the plucking (lute) style.
> Evidence? ;-) You aren't seriously taking those as reliable sources
> for Agazzari-time performance practise, aren't you? That's like
> using the film aof the Woodstock festival as a source for Johann
> Strauss (the IInd) walzer performance ...
> Just to be clear: I don't argue for banning guitars from early
baroque
> continuo section, I jsut think we should be a little bit more
careful
> in what sources we draw our information from.
> Cheers, Ralf Mattes
> > Corbetta in
> > his intabulated vocal/instrumental settings is also fairly
> > restrained: using plucking play with the occasional strummed
chord.
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> > --- On Mon, 12/12/11, [1][10]eisen...@planet.nl
> <[2][11]eisen...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >
> > From: [3][12]eisen...@planet.nl <[4][13]eisen...@planet.nl>
> > Subject: RE: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA]
Re:
> > Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5][14]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>,
> "Vihuelalist"
> > <[6][15]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Monday, 12 December, 2011, 9:55
> >
> > Hi,
> > I'm not so sure about the 'etc.'
> > It seems that Agazzari was thinking in terms of counterpoint,
the
> > way the guitar was used (strumming) does not fit in easily. In
the
> > end, there were more composers who were criticizing the use of
the
> > guitar
> > (Castaldi), at that time. I suppose that the plucked
chitarrina
> could
> > be one of the melodic instruments on his list.
> > Lex
> >
> __________________________________________________________________
> >
> > Van: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[7][16]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
> > Verzonden: ma 12-12-2011 10:24
> > Aan: Vihuelalist; [8][17]eisen...@planet.nl
> > Onderwerp: Return to earlier question: {was Re: [VIHUELA] Re:
> Agazzari
> > guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> > Thanks Lex.
> >
> > Yes, these sources are fairly well known - I'm just not sure
> > terminoligy was sufficiently standardised at the time to draw
> > unequivocal conclusions and the question as to whether
Agazzari
> > had Millioni's four-course guitar, 'chitarrino' in mind or
the
> > instrument required in the Conserto vaga is open.
> >
> > But to return to the original question: did Agrazzi
purposefully
> omit
> > the chitarra spagnuola from his list of instruments as
suitable
> > for basso continuo, or is it included in the etcetera...? I
> > suggested that since he does not list the instrument amongst
those
> > suitable for embellishment then he did think it suitable for
> > continuo (if rarer than the instruments he did singled out).
> > However, I'm certainly not advocating even more banging and
> > thrashing about as fashionable amongst some modern continuo
> groupings......
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> > --
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [9][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> --
> R. Mattes -
> Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
> [10][19]r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[20]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 2.
[21]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 3.
[22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 4.
[23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 5.
>
[24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 6.
[25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 7.
>
[26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
> 8.
[27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
> 9. [28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 10.
[29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@mh-freiburg.de
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
21. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisen...@planet.nl
28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
