From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
guitar?
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Thursday, 22 November, 2012, 15:17
Dear Monica,
I think you've misunderstood my point about fellow academics! - sorry I
wasn't clearer.
In writing this: ' I also find Strizich more complicated than necessary
and really only useful for academics interested in the period guitar
who don't actually play the instrument - are there any?' I was _not_
making the point that academics should not take an interest in the 5
course guitar, but that I couldn't conceive of them doing very much
unless they played the instrument - at least at a basic level. Your
thirdly comment below ('....Their re-action was "The music is rubbish
isn't it?" Fortunately the third examiner was a
guitarist'.....) reinforces my point. Moreover, what would the first
two examiners have said if presented them with a Strizich style
transcription? ........probaby passed out I shouldn't wonder.
Though on reflection, you may be right about not using a low bass 4th
and 5th course as a sort of substitute tablature as I suggested
earlier: not so much from the point of notational precision, but
because it muddies the waters of different possible interpretations
depending on whether the thumb or finger is plucking, the angle of
pluck employed (ie to emphasise a particular string within a course),
etc. But Heaven alone knows how we should notate this subjective and
interpretative matter: perhaps Strizich was on the right lines in using
small notes (maybe making them faint too might help) but I think he
over-eggs the pudding by trying to make his transcriptions served
different purposes: to both represent the sounds and to show where to
finger notes. For non-guitar players a transcription is probably best
just left as a staff notation showing pitches (with small notes) and no
playing markings.
regards
Martyn
--- On Thu, 22/11/12, Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
guitar?
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Thursday, 22 November, 2012, 14:01
First of all - don't you think that some academics at least ought to be
interested in the 5-course guitar repertoire? Frankly I think they
should be and indeed some of them are. After all it has some bearing
on other aspects of 17th century music e.g. music for lute and keyboard
and continuo playing. I don't think a ghetto mentality does us any
favours.
Secondly - I think that it is unhelpful and misleading to transcribe
5-course guitar music as if the 4th and 5th courses were always in the
lower octave. It gives completely the wrong idea about how the music
really sounds and is one reason why even people who play the 5-course
guitar don't appreciate the significance of re-entrant tunings and the
re-entrant effect.
Thirdly - when I did my dissertation on Murcia I did my transcriptions
just as you suggest and two of my examiners - both eminent professors
of music just couldn't get their heads around the idea that a lot of
the notes really sounded an octave higher. Their re-action was "The
music is rubbish isn't it?" Fortunately the third examiner was a
guitarist...
I have been doing a lot of transcriptions for a project recently and
what I find helpful is to use different shaped note heads for notes on
the 4th and 5th courses or do them a different colour when it is
necessary to highlight them. Strizich may not have had that option
but I still think his original transcription is very useful.
As ever
Monica
----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson"
<[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "EugeneBraig" <[2]brai...@osu.edu>
Cc: "Vihuela Dmth" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2012 9:40 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
>
> Dear Eugene,
>
> I also find Strizich more complicated than necessary and really
only
> useful for academics interested in the period guitar who don't
actually
> play the instrument - are there any?
>
> And I agree with what you're saying below: ie to transcribe the
> tablature into staff notation by pretending that the 4th and 5th
> courses have both strings at the lower octave. This way there's
much
> less room for ambiguity and the music will sound different
depending on
> which particular tuning arrangement an individual player chooses to
> employ - in fact, a sort of staff notation tablature....
>
> regards,
>
> Martyn
> --- On Wed, 21/11/12, Braig, Eugene <[4]brai...@osu.edu> wrote:
>
> From: Braig, Eugene <[5]brai...@osu.edu>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
guitar?
> To: "Monica Hall" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, 21 November, 2012, 21:18
>
> Indeed. I'm in the day job office and can't refer directly, but I
seem
> to remember spots/chords where it's not clear to which
course/string
> the symbol applied. Feel free to correct me if this is not the
case.
> Strizich is a somewhat useful...but also a somewhat odd effort.
> Personally, I feel de Visee is one of those few 5-course characters
who
> loses almost nothing in use of the low A throughout. If
transcribing
> de Visee to modern notation, I'd almost rather assume a typical
modern
> instrument, with notes along the fifth notated as though they are
along
> an A, as Grimes did in his guitar transcriptions for good ol' Mel
Bay,
> de Visee included.
> Best,
> Eugene
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [1][8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> [mailto:[2][9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:39 PM
> To: Braig, Eugene
> Cc: Vihuelalist
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
> Well - Strizich does indicate which course the notes are on with a
> little figure in a circle below the stave but you need a magnifying
> glass to read them. e.g. in the first bar the c is played on the
5th
> course and the a on
> the 3rd. He also puts in zeros to indicate open courses e.g. on
line
> 3 in
> the third bar the zeros over the a and b natural indicate that they
are
> played on the open 5th and 2nd courses.
> It does highlight how difficult it is to transcribe baroque guitar
> music coherantly.
> Monica
> Monica
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Braig, Eugene" <[3][10]brai...@osu.edu>
> To: "Vihuelalist" <[4][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:41 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
> >A little late to this chat, but I find the Strizich transcription
a
> bit
> >unwieldy in notating notes along the reentrant a at pitch. It's
just
> hard
> >to know whether notes in the relevant range belong along the a, g,
or
> b
> >string.
> >
> > Best,
> > Eugene
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [5][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> [mailto:[6][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Monica Hall
> > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 2:33 PM
> > To: [7][14]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
> > Cc: Vihuelalist
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
guitar?
> >
> > A transcription of it is also included in Robert Strizich's
edition
> of De
> > Visee's complete works published by Heugel in1969.
> >
> > Monica
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[8][15]ar...@student.matnat.uio.no>
> > To: "Monica Hall" <[9][16]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Cc: "Arto Wikla" <[10][17]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi>; "Vihuelalist"
> > <[11][18]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the
> guitar?
> >
> >
> >> It has also been recorded by Rafael Andia. But I don't really
like
> the
> >> recording...
> >>
> >> mvh
> >> Are
> >>
> >>> Dear Arto
> >>>
> >>> There is a guitar version of this chaconne - in D minor - in
the
> huge
> >>> manuscript F.Pn Res. F. 844. It is on p.237.
> >>>
> >>> Someone - Stuart I think - pointed out that you can download an
> image of
> >>> the
> >>> whole of this ms. from the Bib. Nat. site.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Monica
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Arto Wikla" <[12][19]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi>
> >>> To: "Vihuelalist" <[13][20]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:22 PM
> >>> Subject: [VIHUELA] de Visee Chaconne in a minor to the guitar?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Dear "flat back" lutenists,
> >>>>
> >>>> My try on de Visee's Chaconne in A minor is - as I told - is
in
> >>>>
> >>>>>
[14][21]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYU&feature=youtu.be
> >>>>> [15][22]http://vimeo.com/53172045
> >>>>
> >>>> As I said, there is the original(?) theorbo version of this
> d-minor
> >>>> lute
> >>>> version, but I have a strong memory image that there is also a
> version
> >>>> to the 5 course guitar of this Chaconne. Is it there? Monica?
> Other
> >>>> specialists?
> >>>>
> >>>> best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Arto
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >>>> [16][23]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmouth.
edu
> 2.
[25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmouth.
edu
> 3. [26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
> 4.
[27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 5.
[28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmouth.
edu
> 6.
[29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-arc@cs.dartmouth.
edu
> 7.
[30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arebh@student.matnat.u
io.no
> 8.
[31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arebh@student.matnat.u
io.no
> 9.
[32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> 10.
[33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
> 11.
[34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 12.
[35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
> 13.
[36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
> 14. [37]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYU&feature=youtu.be
> 15. [38]http://vimeo.com/53172045
> 16. [39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
18. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
21. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYU&feature=youtu.be
22. http://vimeo.com/53172045
23. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=brai...@osu.edu
27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
31. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ar...@student.matnat.uio.no
32. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
33. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
34. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wi...@cs.helsinki.fi
36. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
37. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqHHPeLMNYU&feature=youtu.be
38. http://vimeo.com/53172045
39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
