Actually I just noticed that Dean's transcription of Fig.4.12A is
wrong. In the 2nd measure the B major chord is repeated, not
the the C
major one.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [1]Natasha Miles
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Yes, that's the one.
__________________________________________________________________
From: [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: [4]natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:56:36 +0000
"Sorry if I was unclear but I was referring to the 'otherwise'
cadence
in B on page 12. The notations imply, to me at least, that the
A sharp
is to be re-struck in the final B chord. "
Do you mean the one on the top stave of the 4 bracketted
examples. I
think the A# is an ascending appoggiatura...
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: [5]Natasha Miles
To: [6]Monica Hall
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:33 PM
Subject: RE: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
I agree that the melodic line should be taken into account. I
found
when transcribing Foscarini's music that some of his more ambiguous
dissonante chords worked better melodically when some of the
courses
were muted.
Sorry if I was unclear but I was referring to the 'otherwise'
cadence
in B on page 12. The notations imply, to me at least, that the
A sharp
is to be re-struck in the final B chord.
Valdambrini's notations are clearer. He notates an 0 when open
strings
are to be included. Some of his harmonies are pretty
adventurous. If
you have his 1646 book to hand there is a B chord with an open 1st
course indicated on the third system of page 12. There are many
more
examples in the 5th passacaglia in the 1647 book (p.17, 6th and 7th
system). Valdambrini does not notate an 0 when he wants the inner
courses to sound alone. In the 1st bar of the 2nd system (p.17)
this
serves an obvious melodic purpose.
Natasha
> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:04:21 +0000
> To: natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
> CC: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>
> Thanks for your helpful reply.
>
> The piece on p.2 is actually a solo piece, not part of the
section on
> accompaniment. I can see no objection to including the 5th
course at
least
> in the first chord as it is the dominant 7th and with the French
tuning will
> sound in the upper octave but if you include the 1st course
throughout the
> passage it spoils the melodic line which seems to me to be an
important
> element in the composition.
>
> The second example which Dean has given on the same page p.260
but
hasn't
> transcribed is from Matteis p.50, the 1st system. This is
illustrating a
> 4-3 suspension. The bass line is figured and Matteis has not
indicated
> that the 7th should be included in the chord. As far as the
melodic
line
> is concerned it is also more varied if the 1st course is not
repeated
all
> the way through.
>
> This same progression occurs in the example on p.30/2nd
system/2nd
bar. On
> the 5th quaver he has duplicated the note E in unison - there
is an a
on
> line 1 as well as an f on line 2. Again it seems to me that the
melodic
> line is paramount. The same progression occurs in the last bar.
>
> These examples are supposed to illustrate basic progressions
used in
> continuo accompaniment .It seems to me to be reading far more
into
them than
> Matteis intended to suggest that they represent the unusual
dissonance
> associated with Italian monody.
>
> In the 'extraordinary' alternative cadence on B (on page 12) the
suspended
> 4th is doubled on the 5th course but with the French tuning it
will
be in
> unison with the B on the 3rd course. The A# is given as a single
note.
> The chord is not to be repeated. Corbetta does this a lot.
>
> In the examples in the initial section - from p8-13 he doesn't
seem
to put
> any dots in. On p12 - the second of the exmples labeled
"Otherwise"
the 4th
> and 5th courses can't possibly be included in the 1st chord
which is
G# C#
> F# resolving to E# although he has indicated that it should be
strummed.
>
> You could go on .listing all the discrepancies. I must have a
look at
> Valdambrini.. How literally do you take the notation?
>
> As ever
> Monica
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Natasha Miles" <natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk>
> To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuela List" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:13 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
>
>
> > Hi Monica,
> > I've been tackling similar passages for transcription
recently. As
the
> > printed notations offer no guarantee of being error free and as
such
> > inconsistencies in notation are common (see Matteis p. 29
2nd bar,
> > where the same chord has a muted 5th course but no dot on
the 1st
> > course) I look for evidence of the fully strummed voicing in
use
> > elsewhere and also take into account my own preferences.
Valdambrini
> > notates the clashing D sharp and open E on a number of
occasions. I
> > don't have my sources to hand at the moment but I wouldn't be
surprised
> > to find it in Corbetta/Bartolotti/Foscarini too. A 4/3 clash
in the
> > context of a cadence is quite a common (see also the grating
dissonance
> > in Matteis's 'extraordinary' alternative cadence on B on
page 12).
All
> > in all I don't find the inclusion of the open courses too
offensive.
> > Then again, I'd probably play the chord differently as it
re-occurred.
> > Maybe including the open 1st course on one occasion and
sounding
just
> > the inner courses on another depending on how dissonant I
wanted
the
> > chord to sound.
> > > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 16:12:40 +0000
> > > To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> > > CC: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > > From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Matteis
> > >
> > > It is on p.2 at the end of the third stave.
> > >
> > > Whilst you are looking at the book could you also look at the
> > following
> > > piece on p.3, the last stave. You will see that the same
phrase
> > occurs
> > > twice. Matteis has indicated that the 4th and 5th courses
are to
be
> > > omitted the first time (in the first full bar) with dots,
but the
> > > second time (bar 5) there are no dots!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Monica
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
> > >
> > > To: [2]Monica Hall
> > >
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 4:08 PM
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Matteis
> > >
> > > Page no in 1682 original plse
> > > M
> > >
__________________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > From: Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > > To: Vihuelalist <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > > Sent: Thursday, 14 November 2013, 15:34
> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Matteis
> > > On p.260 of his dissertation Alex Dean has reproduced two
passages
> > > from
> > > Matteis's "False consonances".
> > > In his transcription of the excerpt at the top of the page
Dean
> > > proposes that the open 1st and 5th courses should be
included in
> > > all the chords in the 2nd and 3rd bars.
> > > Although Matteis does put dots on the lines very
frequently to
> > > indicate
> > > that courses should be omitted he has not done so here.
However
he
> > > does not seem to me to be wholly consistent about putting
in the
> > > dots,
> > > about putting in"a"s for open courses - or for that matter in
> > > indicating whether 4 part chords should be strummed.
> > > I wonder how many people on the list - who can be bothered to
look at
> > > it - would include the open course in this passage.
> > > Perhaps we could have a vote on it!
> > > As ever
> > > Monica
> > > --
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > References
> > >
> > > 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
> > > 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > > 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
> > > 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
4. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
5. mailto:natasha.mi...@hotmail.co.uk
6. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
