But this is not the case in a situation where someone purchases an inaccessible app. A sighted person purchasing an app will at least have the opportunity to put the software through it's paces. True, a summary of features and screenshots are not sufficient means of judging the usefulness of a program, but in a case where a person, presumably a sighted person, regrets dropping the cash on an app their aggravation is most likely stemming from the software's capabilities being over inflated by the developer. Whereas a blind person downloading the same app where no VO access is genuinely not included doesn't even have the chance to determine whether or not the app will meet his or her needs in the first place.
IMO there is a huge difference between whining about something not suiting someone's needs due to it's not being advertised accurately and not being able to use the app enough to even ascertain whether or not it does as advertised.
If we choose to spend money on an app and can't even access the most basic portions of that app then it isn't accessible to us and the app is useless, not due to it's not containing the features we need but due to our inability to assess it's usefulness.
Perhaps this is a subtle difference to some, but it is a huge issue for me, and I don't think it's whining in those cases to ask for a refund. This doesn't make us whiners or charity cases, it makes us savvy consumers aware of our rights.
In the U.S., at least, most of the access issues have had to be settled by litigation because companies refused to work with us or even acknowledge their product was inaccessible. Heck I still have people amazed that blind people can use a computer, let alone a smart phone, so it's no wonder that the majority of developers aren't aware of our needs.
LisaThere is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a paycheck!
Lisa Belville missktlab1...@frontier.com----- Original Message ----- From: "David Chittenden" <dchitten...@gmail.com>
To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 6:05 AM Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible AppsHere is my problem with all this stuff around accessibility of apps. Apple clearly states in their documentation for those who are not blind, that all sales are final. People on this list argue that sighted persons can look at the, up to five, screen shots to ascertain if the app will work for them. Get real, folks, five pictures does not tell a person how well an app works. Five pictures only tells a person if they will find the lay-out of five appearances of app screens to be acceptable. I have read many reviews of apps where the reviewer comments that the app is a waste of money and the reviewer wishes he/she did not waste the money on the app. And, this is the case no matter how expensive the app is.
So, basically, what I interpret people to be saying is, we are special. We require charity. We do not wish to be treated like everybody else.
For example, and the reason I am so specific about this, and the reason I have never, and will never, unless Apple changes its general policy, ask for an app refund is, a couple months after DigitEyes was placed for sale on the App Store, a person on this list at that time could not figure out how to get DigitEyes to work for himself/herself, so the person told Apple that DigitEyes was not accessible and received a refund. DigitEyes was specifically developed to be accessible. It just was not useable for that person for whatever reason. Therefore, the person flagrantly and completely abused Apple's charity refund policy for us poor, helpless, blind folk.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA Email: dchitten...@gmail.com Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 Sent from my iPhone On 12/09/2013, at 22:10, Joanne Chua <shuang.an...@gmail.com> wrote:
If blind and vips people insist that if an app is not accessible with voiceover, we have the rights to refun/return the apps deal to inaccessibility within the apps. Now, i have a question and a thought, if a developer specificly develop apps for voiceover and does not have other way of accessing the apps but voiceover, can an ordinary non-voiceover user refun the app with the condition that is being too accessible for the minority, but inaccessible for the other people? Of course, this is just a point of arguement, it does not involve any of the app development policy or anything or such. Just looking at things in different angle..Joanne Chua The flip side of Inclusion is Exclusion. Leaders For Tomorrow 2013 Candidate Send from my iPadOn 12/09/2013, at 19:13, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> wrote:So this 90-day policy has "always" been the case, right? Nothing has beenchanged nor lawsuits nor petitions been used to force compliance by Apple,right?As a general statement conveying my own personal opinion, this incident ismore proof for the value of asking questions and educating oneself rather than starting long, expensive legal wars. <Smile>.I would now ask for a link to a "terms of agreement" webpage on the matterof accessibility, which we can all point to when the issue of refunds for inaccessible apps pops up. This will serve to educate ourselves and to educate the next Apple customer service employee who doesn't clearly understand the apple refund policy. We would be in a much better place to present a good case if we can provide customer service with the link specifying our rights as Apple customers. Glad all came to a friendly close... for now. <Smile>. Joseph----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com>To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2013 1:58 AM Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps Patrick,I, like David, have now heard from Apple's Accessibility team that refundsfor none accessible apps will be granted within a 90 day window, and thatthis is Apple's policy on this matter. They had no explanation or apology asto why it had been ignored or not followed by what they termed as fiveseparate members of the iTunes Team being involved, but, never the less I'venow got my refund and have an e-mail from Accessibility with the policy clearly spelled out. As such, I'm a happy bunny again and hopefully Apple's Accessibility team might take me up on my suggestion that they round robin e-mail all iTunes support staff informing them of the policy again! Thanks to all who've participated in this conversation. Regards, Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator Twitter @neilbarnfather TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com URL: - www.talknav.com e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com Phone: - +44 844 999 4199On 12 Sep 2013, at 04:40, Patrick Neazer <vantagepoint1...@gmail.com> wrote:Hello Neil and all:Thank you so much for your presentation of your position. It is clear andwell thought out.As an iPhone user attempting to find my way through this maze I must weigh what you have so skillfully articulated alongside what seemingly seems tobe Apple's position … Apple states: Hello, Thank you for your email. The iTunes Store policy regarding app refundsfor inaccessibile apps has not changed. The Store will provide refunds as long as they fall within the 90 day refund window (as is standard with any iTunes Store refund.) Please ensure that any refund you request is made ina timely manner as we cannot grant exceptions to the 90 day policy. Apple Accessibility. So, my dilemma persists. Apple seems to have a policy as stated by the people to whom we are asked to write. and yet, seemingly, there is a disconnect. Is there a problem with the 90 day window? Is the answer possibly what was suggested earlier that the standard method by which to receive these refunds is online and not over the phone? is that what is potentially causing the log jam? As I have stated earlier, and will say again, I have no pre rehearsedanswer to any of these questions. however, I think if these questions aretaken seriously two things will be the natural result: 1. a transparent answer will be arrived at without needing to appeal to personalities. Principle should govern the discussion and that meansestablishing for anyone who is faced with such an occurrence of needing arefund what the actual rules are and how they impact everyone proportionately.2. And understanding of what is and what is not happening so constructivesolutions to existing reality can be offered. I did not mention him by name earlier though I will now … Tyler made asuggestion which I believed is based in principle from the perspective ofthe developers … making Apple's documentation easier to use. That is auniversal strategy which has been embraced by many communities and can bemeasured. I know that the response I received from accessibility was not only sentto my inbox. does anyone have any experience to share here that might shedmore light upon the topic? the security of knowing that the world's leading accessibility company is both responsive and collaborative is always a fruitful topic for conversation and a fantastic catalyst for action.The purchasing of apps is a topic close to all of us. Thank you from hereto all whom have participated and offered their best efforts. Take good care and I wish you enough. On Sep 11, 2013, at 6:05 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav <for...@talknav.com> wrote:Patrick, As it was I whom started the thread I shall answer as follows… Apple's official online policy for App Store purchases is that once completed they are none refundable and all purchases are final. There are no exemptions listed and its pretty much a catch all, once you've pressed buy, entered your password and pressed OK, you're done,that's it, no money back and importantly especially for Voice Over users,no guarantee… What I am lobbying for, and the call to arms if you will, is for ustogether as a community to tell Apple that this policy puts our communityuniquely at a disadvantage. We cannot look at the screen shots, almost never is there a review by aVoice Over user pointing out whether or not the app is accessible or not,where there is, how would you find that single review amongst many others… Often App developers are unaware of our needs, the tools Appleprovide to resolve those and link up with their accessibility API's whichprovide features like Voice Over to operate. Apple themselves make no effort to point these features out to developers, they do not screen apps submitted to them for compliance, they offer no incentive to, or not to, comply with their standards, and finally, they offer us the user no way of simply flagging an app in an easy to follow and find manner that an app has been certified by our community as functional. Given all of the above, I believe it right and proper that Apple accept that occasionally we will purchase an app and it will not function asintended by the developer for us, and as such, we aught to be entitled toour money back. That's it, in a nut shell, no bells, no whistles, no credibility check, plain simple language that I hope covers my specific grievance in one. Whilst some have pointed out is all this necessary for the odd dollar here and there, I suppose it comes down to how many apps you buy and at what cost they are.I personally buy 5 or so a week, granted most of these are low cost, but the app that specifically caused me to write to them was £35 about US$50.and I consider this worthy of my money back.This aside, no-one should be made to pay money for something they cannotuse, no matter the amount. Hope that this clears things up Regards, Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator Twitter @neilbarnfatherTalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an AppleiOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com URL: - www.talknav.com e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 On 11 Sep 2013, at 20:11, Patrick Neazer <vantagepoint1...@gmail.com> wrote:Hello Neil, Joseph, and all:I have been following this thread since its inception and I must confessI am a bit confused by the arc of the conversation. It began with a judgement pertaining to a policy which may or may not exist addressing the refund of money for app purchases. then, a turn was taken topatronizing activity or not. then there was an appeal to the upstandingcredentials of an individual and then … well … I lost the trail. I am not attempting to take sides or a stand. I am truly attempting to understand what is actually occurring and what the call to action is. so, in an attempt to clarify my obvious unclear view here is myquestion … does Apple have a stated policy or procedure which is clearlystated and viewable by the public governing refunds for app purchases and does there policy outline any unique exemptions based on pick thecriteria of choice? If that information could be presented as quickly aslinks to write to apple requesting policy changes and adaptations tobusiness practices that would go a long way I believe to clearing up myapparent confusion and sharpening the discussion in the minds of othermembers of the community who may be experiencing the same confusion I amexperiencing. Of course, I may be the only one confused and if so, anyone reading this whom has been following the thread is free to disregard anything written above.Thank you to anyone who reads this and responds in a constructive mannerand high fives to all those who take up the mantle of improving the tools which make the lives of persons with disabilities easier to navigate. Take good care and I wish you enough. PatrickOn Sep 11, 2013, at 1:46 PM, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com>wrote:Well, the suggestion I posted has nothing to do with you personally.<Smile>. it's a general, unbiased suggestion, and had anyone else madeit, I would have suggested the same thing. It was another lister who turned this into a bit of an ad hominem discussion. Joseph----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com>To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 11:22 AM Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps Joseph, As Sieghard has said, I'm not one for such things, and have been a positiveadvocate of our community online and off line for many, many years now…Iwould recommend that you check out my web-site; neilbarnfather.com forsome information and this might explain a little more about myself and my work. Regards, Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator Twitter @neilbarnfather TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. For all your accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com URL: - www.talknav.com e-mail: - serv...@talknav.com Phone: - +44 844 999 4199 On 11 Sep 2013, at 17:13, Joseph FreeTech <joseph.freet...@gmail.com> wrote:Very smart suggestion. Let's say we all jump on this bandwagon (once again), and in the end we discover that whoever the original person this happened towas very nasty and demanding to the Apple customer service employees;hence the poor service. We're all going to be very embarrassed and not likely to take this issue up again in the future. We first need proof of a pattern of poor service and not just some single person's complaint. Joseph----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa belville" <missktlab1...@frontier.com>To: <viphone@googlegroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps Hi. Is there any way you could share a letter showing how the Apple people were patronizing/unhelpful in this regard? I understand the frustration ofnot getting a refund for something inaccessible and how a clueless repmakes this all the more annoying, but IMO there's a difference between politely/patiently conveying a policy and being patronizing. Obviously, youcan take out any names in this letter, but it would be good to see an example of this attitude. Could it possibly be this particular rep'sissue and not necessarily one of Apple itself? I'm referring to the patronizing/unsympathetic attitude and not the policy itself. Lisa There is a fine line between genius and insanity and that difference is a paycheck! Lisa Belville missktlab1...@frontier.com----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Barnfather - TalkNav" <for...@talknav.com>To: <macvisionar...@googlegroups.com>; <viphone@googlegroups.com>; "The Accessible Phones Discussion List" <blindpho...@mosenexplosion.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:58 AM Subject: Apple App Store & Refunds for inaccessible Apps The below should prove a concern to all Apple accessibility feature users, and I would urge as many of you who can do so, to please write to Apple yourselves to express your concern along the same lines where possible… (accessibil...@apple.com). For years now Apple has led the way in accessibility standards and application of methods in interacting with all of its product range. Internationally within many disability arenas Apple is celebrated as the defacto standard and is widely acknowledged as users preferred platform for persons with accessibility issues. Whether or not the App Store had an unofficial policy towards customers with accessibility needs or not, is unknown to me. What I am aware of is thatwhere I've bought Apps which turn out not to be accessible, Apple AppStore has always been prompt to refund the purchase immediately without question. Since Apple do not enforce accessibility standards, nor in anyway whatsoeveroffer a method of a disabled user to know whether or not an App is, oris not, accessible in advance of purchase, this seemed to be a most reasonable compromise. However, in correspondence over the past week with Apple iTunes support staff via e-mail in relation to an App I have purchased which is inaccessible, Apple's stance has been both surprising and frankly highly dismissive of our needs and vulnerability when using Apple's App Store. I have been point blank refused a refund upon this occasion, with staffsuggesting that I could leave a review for the App which others couldread, and or write to the developer. Whilst I understand that the secondsuggestion may illicit a positive response, and sometimes it does… Inmany instances developers haven't even heard of Voice Over let alone understand what it does and how they aught to address compliance with Apple's Accessibility API's. Of course, the best approach would be for Apple to make compliance with its Accessibility API's a requirement for all new Apps being approved to the App Store, indeed a range of other options would also work, such as; a discount on the 30% cut that Apple takes for compliant Apps, a penalty higher fee (35% etc) for those that do not comply and perhaps indicating with a marker in the App store which Apps do meet the requirements. Since Apple do none of these, despite so publicly professing to up holding and supporting some of the most well implemented accessibility innovation and support seen in the industry, it seemed like a fair compromise that Apple voluntarily and without complication offered a refund to customers who had accessibility needs where an App proved to be inaccessible. The situation now, though is that Apple is refusing in an uncompromising and frankly shocking way to refund such purchases, with patronising and unsympathetic suggestions as to how we, as blind users, go about reviewing Apps etc. I would ask that Apple firstly developed a robust policy in this regard, and secondly, reviews options as to improving the compliance uptake of developers within their iOS and Mac App Stores.So that I can convey your response to the ViPhone, Macvisionaries andotherApple Accessibility user forums promptly, I would sincerely appreciateyour earliest feedback and response on this issue. Yours kindly. Regards, Neil Barnfather http://www.NeilBarnfather.com Regards, Neil Barnfather Talks List Administrator Twitter @neilbarnfather TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, as well as an Apple iOS, Macintosh and Android accessibility specialist. 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