I think beta decay/evaporation at the surface of the hole will emit
ionizing radiation which will punch atomic holes in the ship as it
approaches, sinking it to davey jones' cosmic locker...
On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
> You might be correct since it is difficult to perform an experiment of
> this type. I would not expect radiation to be emitted by the ship since it
> has zero net charge. This would not be the case if a plasma enters the
> black hole. I suspect that the intense radiation that we detect currently
> is due to the charged things being accelerated on the way in. Direct heat
> radiation (with a red shift) would be expected due to collisions within the
> extremely hot plasma.
>
> I have been trying to understand what a far away observer detects
> instead of what the poor guy inside the doomed ship sees. What would you
> expect us to view as the spaceship heads inward? We know that gravitation
> causes time dilation so does the spaceman come to a complete stop in motion
> as I suspect at the boundary? I can imagine him looking extremely flat and
> motionless at the boundary until the remnants of his existence red shifts
> into oblivion. The main problem is that it takes time for the photons to
> finally reach 0 Hertz, actually an infinite amount of it. I look at this
> as similar to an exponential decay. The signal never actually reaches zero,
> but becomes close in a hurry.
>
> The mass of the ship could be determined by the gravitational energy
> difference between the two points that we observe. In my concept the ship
> is motionless at the boundary so all of the gravitational energy is
> converted to effective mass. This is from our long way off perspective and
> others will see different things.
>
> These are interesting questions that we are considering and I am
> confident that many have seeked the answers before us. It is a good
> exercise in reasoning.
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ChemE Stewart <cheme...@gmail.com <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'cheme...@gmail.com');>>
> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:43 pm
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
>
> Dave,
>
> I believe the mass of the ship is converted to energy (thru radiation)
> as it approaches which is then converted to entropy and increases the
> surface of the hole. The "information" becomes completely scattered by
> the time it reaches the surface. Until you reach the surface, the black
> hole is doing "work" on you we call "gravity", which is an entropic force.
>
> Stewart
> Darkmattersalot.com
>
> On Thursday, December 27, 2012, David Roberson wrote:
>
> OK, I guess that I am modifying my beliefs as we consider the implications
> of this system. I think you are correct in the assumption that the mass of
> the ship does not reach infinity at the horizon. If we assume that no
> energy is created out of thin air then the mass of the ship must increase
> significantly as it reaches the boundary. This must be true since the
> velocity of the ship becomes zero at that point and all of the
> gravitational energy due to the initial location of the ship at the
> beginning point of its journey must be converted into mass. This could be
> calculated, and it definitely is not infinity but is substantially greater
> than when at rest in our vicinity.
>
> Again, you need to think about each observer and what they perceive. We
> need to have our laws of physics to be in effect during our observations
> and the other guys need the same. So far, the only way that this seems
> likely is for time dilation to work overtime. I suspect that the red shift
> is a stand in for time dilation on board the ship, but I do not recall
> seeing that proven. If it is true, then we have an easy technique to
> employ.
>
> I now tend to think that the space guy can impact with the black hole,
> but that it will take forever for this to happen from our perspective. If
> he had a jar full of muons, they would never decay as far as we could tell
> while he is near that boundary. Too bad for him, but the muons would not
> be able to save him from extinction in a very short time period. Then
> again, he might live for essentially ever from our point of view which is
> an extension to his normal life span in our environment. My father used to
> tell us kids that time passes faster and faster as you get older. Now I
> understand what he meant.
>
> The curvature of space might somehow enter into this discussion but I am
> not sure how to think of its effect. I am confident that time dilation is
> a factor, but perhaps the distances are modified as well. That is an area
> to consider.
>
> You know what I think of sources that say that things are meaningless
> don't you? That translates into I do not know and please do not ask me
> again.
>
> It is late and my mind is becoming mush.
>
> Dave
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax <a...@lomaxdesign.com>
> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:09 am
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]:Question About Event Horizon
>
> At 10:23 PM 12/26/2012, David Roberson wrote:
> >We both agree that nothing will happen to the ship itself unless
> >tidal forces tear it apart. That has not been an issue and I am not
> >sure of why you start with the assumption that I think it will. You
> >must have misunderstood my statement. I suppose I could have made
> >it in a clearer manner.
>
> I never objected to the thought experiment, nor thought that this
> would be an issue. We can imagine a teeny-tiny spaceship that is
> super strong. and we can imagine a really big black hole, so that the
> curvature doesn't bite us.
>
> >The ship itself will never think it reaches the ultimate boundary
> >but we will see radiation emitted by it become red shifted until no
> >more detectable energy comes our way from it.
>
> I'm no longer confident of any of the explanations. The holonauts
> never see the singularity, but if they are travelling toward it, in
> their own time, they see an event horizon ahead of them, becoming
> smaller more and more intense, I'd think. However, lots of sources
> say that events beyond the event horizon are meaningless.
>
> Part of what is frying my brain here is the gravitational field at
> the event horizon. The event horizon is defined as the boundary where
> gravity
>
>
