At 12:12 AM 12/28/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Weapons grade balonium.
Anyone who cares can read this entire post and see that Jojo has
lied, and is continuing to lie, about what is actually in this post.
Jojo attempts, below, to avoid this by introducing new or separate
arguments. They are highly unlikely to be true. But they are all
avoiding the obvbous. He lied about the document that is copied here
and he continues to lie about it.
It is not necessary to continue to address the additional arguments
that he makes below. This thread was started with a subject, the
"Birther Myth." The myth in question would be that there is an
Executive Order that "covers" the Birth Certificate, that prohibites
release of it, when the Order itself is quite explicit about what it
covers, and what it covers has *nothing* to do with documents that
are not Presidential Records, which are specific kinds of documents
created by a President during their term of office.
Thus there is a "Birther Myth" here, and that was Jojo's term, he
created the subject header. He repeats the myth and refuses to
actually address the evidence, what is in the document. The document
was clearly created by an attorney (and seems to roughly follow a
similar document created by Bush in late 2001). It's very explicit
about what it covers and what it does not cover, and, in context, an
Executive Order only covers those under the authority of the
Executive. Jojo has been asked to describe how this document covers
birth certificates and other documents that are not Presidential
Records, and he has not even acknowledged the question. He just keeps
repeating the myth.
This conversation is useless. I'll continue with a response to his
conversation here, but I expect this is the last time. Enough has
been shown to establish Jojo as without credit or trustworthiness. If
he says anything correct, it's an accident.
You repeat your lies that people have seen Obama's BC, but nobody
actually has.
I have no personal knowledge as to whether anyone has seen Obama's
BC, but unless Jojo is truly psychic, he has no knowledge that
"nobody" has seen it. It's been seen by, at least, the following
people, as would be established in a court of law if necessary. Some
of these are matters of public record, some are merely readily
inferred. Here is who has seen the *information* in the BC, or the BC
itself, or a certified legal copy of it.
1. The person who prepared the information given to a clerk to be
typed into the birth certificate form.
2. The clerk who typed it.
3. The person who signed it as having deliverer the child as described.
4. The clerk in the records office in Hawaii who assigned it a
certificate number
5. The mother who was given a copy.
6. The person who released public information about the birth to
Hawaiian newspapers at the time.
7. Persons who filed the document or added it to the bound volume.
8. The person who added certain codes to the document.
9. The person who keypunched the basic birth information into the
Hawaiian system.
10. Any person who, over the years, issued a certified copy of the
certificate (short form) which is printed from the system data. One
of these is a known person, her name is on the "short form" copy that
was released. She certified that the data was as it existed in the
computer system (in 2007).
11. The Hawaaian state official who made a copy of the long form and
certified it as a true copy (this is also a known person).
12. At least one other Hawaaian official who saw the original at that time.
13. Obama and Obama's counsel, who saw the certified form long form
(And everyone who saw the short form as a sealed and signed document,
before the long form copies were released).
14. The press at the 2011 press conference, who saw a certified copy,
and who were given photocopies of the certified copy.
15. The general public, who have seen a scan of the BC, as released
on the internet. There is *no* evidence that has been presented that
this copy is different, other than differences normal in some scans
from originals, from the certified, signed, and sealed copy.
16. There may be others. It's unlikely that there are *no others.*
Has, for example, Michelle Obama seen the certified copy?
But I can say someone who has probably not seen it. The National
Archivist. It is not a "Presidential Record." It is not covered, at
all, by the laws governing Presidential Records. The certified copies
are the personal property of Obama.
Give me the name of one single individual who have claimed to
have seen Obama's original BC.
Okay, I"ll have to look.
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/News_Release_Birth_Certificate_042711.pdf
was released under the seal of the Governor of Hawai'i, Neil Abercrombie.
Hawai'i Health Director Loretta Fuddy
Dr. Alvin Onaka, the State Registrar
Will two names do instead of the one requested? Those two people
explicitly acknowledged witnessing the copying of the original certificate.
Not just say it's been seen by Hawaii officials, or clerks
etc. Give me a name. One credible individual who have seen it is
sufficient for me.
Done.
No one have seen it. It's covered as executive privelege
information in this executive order.
No. The executive order is irrelevant. It is covered as private
information under Hawai'ian state law, the same as all birth certificates.
That is the veil of corruption with this president.
Abercrombie could have seen it if he wasn't blocked.
He was apparently not blocked. Rather, he asked the State Attorney
General for an opinion, and was told that he had no authority to
access and view the certificate, that it would be a violation of law
-- which has nothing to do with the Executive Order -- so he gave up
on an intention to view it. That's what he said about this.
He is an official government officer seeking access to official
documents relating to the public good. He by himself would have
authority under Hawaii law to access those vault records. He could
have accessed it as governor.
That's Jojo's opinion. We have laws limiting the power and authority
of government officials. Access to the document would require a court
order, or a search warrant issued by a court. The police, agents of
the executive, cannot access protected private records without such
an order or otherwise within normal procedure. For example, a clerk
can access the computer records to prepare an ordinary certified copy
of the certificate, if legally requested.
Yet he was blocked and obviously threatened to give up the
investigation. This is the veil of corruption of this usurper-in-chief.
There is no sign that Abercrombie was threatened. The advice of the
state attorney was clearly consistent with state law. He was
"blocked," yes, but by his own interpretation of state law. (He could
have, as governor, ignored the interpretation, but, then, he'd be
taking other risks and causing other damage. And the state officials
involved could have refused to honor his request as being illegal,
and he'd have needed to go to court to order them to comply. Or,
alternatively, as the chief executive, he could have ordered the
state police to enter the archive and make a copy of the certificate,
creating a crisis. Maybe. Maybe he'd be immediately impeached as
governor for violating state law on the privacy of records. No, he
wasn't threatened, it looks like a simple conversation with the state
attorney was quite enough. His purpose in even suggesting he might
view the record was to resolve the stupid controversy, and that would
not be served by creating a legal crisis. Instead, Obama made it
moot, by requesting a copy of the "vault certificate," Abercrombie
might or might not have been involved with that in some way, but did
release, under his personal name and the state seal, the press
release cited above, that gives the names of the state officials who
saw the original document and certified the copy. If Onaka did not
actually see the document, or if the original document was different
from the copy, Onaka would be committing a felony. And it would be
likely to be discovered, eventually. Not plausible.)
But Lomax will continue to prop up this muslim president and lie for
the greater good of islam.
Not a Muslim President, and it is not allowed, in Islam, to "lie for
the greater good of Islam." That is an oxymoron.
End of topic. Enough. Jojo's credibility stands totally demolished,
there is no further need to clutter this list with response from me,
which will henceforth be severely curtailed.
Jojo
----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <a...@lomaxdesign.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT]Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
At 09:27 PM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Lomax does not understand that this Executive Order covers
anything related to previous and current presidents.
No. Not only do I not undertand it that way, nobody who has any
clue about law and authority and juridiction doesn't understand
that. It does not cover his listing in phone books. It does not
cover *anything relating to his life before becoming President." It
only covers exactly what it says it covers: Presidential Records in
the custody of the National Archivist.
Anything about this current president is covered by this order.
Like these posts? Like his driver's license? *Those are not
*Presidential Records.* That terms has a very specific meaning,
defined in the Order.
IF anyone wants to release information about Obama's BC, they
have to go thru Eric Holder (the corrupt right henchman) or thru
the Presidential counsel; for approval.
No, that's not true. I was about to say it was, but I re-read it. I
mean, what an idiot! Information about Obama's BC is routinely
"released." We've done it here. No, what is true is that to gain
access to private records, which include birth certificates,
hospital records, school records, and the like, the permission of
the individual involved must be obtained, which could include
someone with a power of attorney. This has *nothing to do with the
Executive Order, it is explicitly and specificaly not about those
non-Presidential Records. Presidential Records are not just
anything about the President, they are documents created within the
Presidency by the President, in his capacity as President. It's
defined in the Order:
"Presidential records" refers to those documentary materials
maintained by NARA pursuant to the Presidential Records Act,
including Vice Presidential records.
The documents Jojo refers to are not "maintained by NARA." Period.
This is *really* stupid, obtuse beyond belief.
This is the veil of corruption surrounding this usurper-in-thief
and people like lomax are gving him a pass. I'm not surprised as
lies are OK for Lomax as long as it helps prop up his illegitimate
usurper muslim president.
We see right here that Jojo's arguments are totally corrupt,
divorced from basic reality, clearly, as we can see with no
research other than what's included in this mail, the Executive
Order itself. Jojo has simply repeated his claim, ignoring the
Order that he himself provided as evidence.
There is nothing that connects the order to his *birth
certificate*, and even if he were so stupid as to issue an
Executive Order to attempt to control documents held and controlled
under Hawaiian law, Hawaiian officials would ignore him.
No, you cannot just walk in and access records that are protected
under the law, but that protection has nothing to do with the
Executive Order. Sheriff Arpaio's investigators -- operating
privately, but apparently misrepresenting themselves as the
"police," -- tried to do that. They were tossed out. That has zilch
to do with this Order, and Jojo keeps tossing smoke bombs to
conceal the fact that he *lied.*
The issue here is not the alleged corruption of Obama. The issue is
not whether Obama should bend even further backwards to satisfy the
"birthers," when Jojo is showing that he, anyway, won't be
satisfied No Matter What. The issue is in the subject title, which
Jojo created. He left out the [OT] tag when he created the thread,
I just added it.
"Birther Myth? or Lomax lies"
Jojo said that there was an Executive Order that prevents the
release of the birth certificate. He didn't make that up, it is a
common claim among birthers. It's a "Birther Myth." I didn't know
for sure that Jojo was referring to this partcular Executive Order,
but eventually I concluded that there wasn't any other. Jojo keeps
claiming that I'm lying. I return the favor, but ... he's lying,
and it can be seen here. When one lies in the presence of
conclusive evidence, the possible excuse of "I just didn't realize"
disappears. Jojo is lying.
He's lying because he is attempting to deceive and repeating
deceptions long after any possible reasonable excuse. It appears
that he won't even read the evidence he himself presented. It's an
Executivee Order, and it talks about Presidential Records. Obama is
President, and a Birth Certificate is a Record, and, Q.E.D., the BC
is a Presidentital Record, right? No. Wrong. The Order defines
Presidential Records, and they have absolutely nothing to do with
anyone's Birth Certificate, not his, not Bush's, not Clintons, etc.
no more original content below. The Executive Order is there, though.
Jojo
----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax"
<a...@lomaxdesign.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2012 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Birther Myth? or Lomax lies
At 03:50 AM 12/27/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Here is the actual Executive Order that Obama issued immediately
after he took power. The Media spins this as rescinding a Bush
Executive Order 13233. But in fact, it is a new Executive Order
to specifically require his approval before release of any
information, obstensively because of "Executive Privelege".
Obstentively? Took me a moment. Ostensibly.
"Release of any information." Sure. "Any information" of what
type, where located, and by whom?
Now, Lomax, who is lying now. Do I get my apology now? What
exactly have you debunked? .... you blatant liar.
No, no apology, unless you show that the Executive Order does
what you claimed. I not only never claimed that this *particular*
Exectuive Order did not exist, I linked to it and discussed it specifically.
[...]
Go Ahead, take you best spin shoot. Let's see what spin and
lies you'll come up next.
You've acknowledged all along that what you are doing is
spinning. You have acknowledged that you say things that aren't
true to create a dramatic image. That's "spin." But I'll give you
a fair chance here.
You claimed that this document is an Executive Order which blocks
access to Obama's vault BC. Below, I quote a bit of what I wrote,
to which you are responding. I wrote, in more than one way, "If
he fails to apologize, or point to an actual order doing what he
claimed, he is, effectively, a liar."
Okay, how does this Order do that? What would cause this document
to apply to birth records held by Hawaiian state officials? It's
all here right in front of us, no more research should be necessary.
But, also for the record, I'll say it again: There is no
Executive Order that blocks public access to the "vault" birth
certificate. That access is blocked by Hawaiian law on the
privacy of records (as is true, I think, in all states). Some
access to records is blocked by HIPAA, a federal law relating to
the privacy of medical records, and there are other laws
protecting the privacy of certain records, but no relevant
Executive Order that does what Jojo claims.
He lied, and he is continuing to lie. But ... his turn.
THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release January 21, 2009
EXECUTIVE ORDER 13489 - - - - - - -
PRESIDENTIAL RECORDS
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution
and the laws of the United States of America, and in order to
establish policies and procedures governing the assertion of
executive privilege by incumbent and former Presidents in
connection with the release of Presidential records by the
National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) pursuant to
the Presidential Records Act of 1978, it is hereby ordered as
follows: Section 1. Definitions. For purposes of this order:
(a) "Archivist" refers to the Archivist of the United States or
his designee. (b) "NARA" refers to the National Archives and
Records Administration.
(c) "Presidential Records Act" refers to the Presidential
Records Act, 44 U.S.C. 2201-2207.
(d) "NARA regulations" refers to the NARA regulations
implementing the Presidential Records Act, 36 C.F.R. Part 1270.
(e) "Presidential records" refers to those documentary materials
maintained by NARA pursuant to the Presidential Records Act,
including Vice Presidential records.
(f) "Former President" refers to the former President during
whose term or terms of office particular Presidential records were created.
(g) A "substantial question of executive privilege" exists if
NARA's disclosure of Presidential records might impair national
security (including the conduct of foreign relations), law
enforcement, or the deliberative processes of the executive branch.
(h) A "final court order" is a court order from which no appeal
may be taken.
Sec. 2. Notice of Intent to Disclose Presidential Records. (a)
When the Archivist provides notice to the incumbent and former
Presidents of his intent to disclose Presidential records
pursuant to section 1270.46 of the NARA regulations, the
Archivist, using any guidelines provided by the incumbent and
former Presidents, shall identify any specific materials, the
disclosure of which he believes may raise a substantial question
of executive privilege. However, nothing in this order is
intended to affect the right of the incumbent or former
Presidents to invoke executive privilege with respect to
materials not identified by the Archivist. Copies of the notice
for the incumbent President shall be delivered to the President
(through the Counsel to the President) and the Attorney General
(through the Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal
Counsel). The copy of the notice for the former President shall
be delivered to the former President or his designated
representative. (b) Upon the passage of 30 days after receipt by
the incumbent and former Presidents of a notice of intent to
disclose Presidential records, the Archivist may disclose the
records covered by the notice, unless during that time period
the Archivist has received a claim of executive privilege by the
incumbent or former President or the Archivist has been
instructed by the incumbent President or his designee to extend
the time period for a time certain and with reason for the
extension of time provided in the notice. If a shorter period of
time is required under the circumstances set forth in section
1270.44 of the NARA regulations, the Archivist shall so indicate in the notice.
Sec. 3. Claim of Executive Privilege by Incumbent President. (a)
Upon receipt of a notice of intent to disclose Presidential
records, the Attorney General (directly or through the Assistant
Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel) and the
Counsel to the President shall review as they deem appropriate
the records covered by the notice and consult with each other,
the Archivist, and such other executive agencies as they deem
appropriate concerning whether invocation of executive privilege is justified.
(b) The Attorney General and the Counsel to the President, in
the exercise of their discretion and after appropriate review
and consultation under subsection (a) of this section, may
jointly determine that invocation of executive privilege is not
justified. The Archivist shall be notified promptly of any such determination.
(c) If either the Attorney General or the Counsel to the
President believes that the circumstances justify invocation of
executive privilege, the issue shall be presented to the
President by the Counsel to the President and the Attorney General.
(d) If the President decides to invoke executive privilege, the
Counsel to the President shall notify the former President, the
Archivist, and the Attorney General in writing of the claim of
privilege and the specific Presidential records to which it
relates. After receiving such notice, the Archivist shall not
disclose the privileged records unless directed to do so by an
incumbent President or by a final court order.
Sec. 4. Claim of Executive Privilege by Former President. (a)
Upon receipt of a claim of executive privilege by a living
former President, the Archivist shall consult with the Attorney
General (through the Assistant Attorney General for the Office
of Legal Counsel), the Counsel to the President, and such other
executive agencies as the Archivist deems appropriate concerning
the Archivist's determination as to whether to honor the former
President's claim of privilege or instead to disclose the
Presidential records notwithstanding the claim of privilege. Any
determination under section 3 of this order that executive
privilege shall not be invoked by the incumbent President shall
not prejudice the Archivist's determination with respect to the
former President's claim of privilege.
(b) In making the determination referred to in subsection (a) of
this section, the Archivist shall abide by any instructions
given him by the incumbent President or his designee unless
otherwise directed by a final court order. The Archivist shall
notify the incumbent and former Presidents of his determination
at least 30 days prior to disclosure of the Presidential
records, unless a shorter time period is required in the
circumstances set forth in section 1270.44 of the NARA
regulations. Copies of the notice for the incumbent President
shall be delivered to the President (through the Counsel to the
President) and the Attorney General (through the Assistant
Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel). The copy of
the notice for the former President shall be delivered to the
former President or his designated representative.
Sec. 5. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be
construed to impair or otherwise affect:
(i) authority granted by law to a department or agency, or the
head thereof; or (ii) functions of the Director of the Office of
Management and Budget relating to budget, administrative, or
legislative proposals.
(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable
law and subject to the availability of appropriations. (c) This
order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or
benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in
equity by any party against the United States, its departments,
agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.
Sec. 6. Revocation. Executive Order 13233 of November 1, 2001, is revoked.
BARACK OBAMA
THE WHITE HOUSE, January 21, 2009.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax"
<a...@lomaxdesign.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] Moon God, Dozens of wives, and marriageable age
Conclusion, there is no such Executive Order. It appears that
Jojo Jaro believes birther myths, long after they have been
conclusively and with evidence debunked. If he fails to
apologize, or point to an actual order doing what he claimed,
he is, effectively, a liar.
Notice, the above is in reference to what was said below. Jojo
doesn't actually read what he responds to. It was a reference to
an "Executive Order to block access" to "vault records," i.e.,
the Hawaiian vault copy of the original long form certificate.
[...]
At 02:24 PM 12/26/2012, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
At 01:07 AM 12/26/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote:
Funny thing is, the new governor of Hawaii Ambercrombie - a
democrat, strong supporter of Obama, wanted to silence the
birther movement once and for all. So, he sought to dig into
Obama's vault BC. Guess what? Even he can't penetrate the
veil of corruption Obama has put up to block access to his
vault records. Why is there an executive order to block
access to Obama's vault BC.
Fascinating. Is there such an Executive Order? That would be
quite odd. Legally, the President has no authority over
Hawaiian officials, unless a federal issue could be shown. and
this would not qualify.
Jojo went on to repeat the Executive Order claim that Obama is
preventing access to the vault certificate. Is that true? Is
there an "Executive Order to block access."
What can be found on this?
and then I went into detail, with links....
