Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com via<http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=1311182> eskimo.com 11:45 AM (15 hours ago) to vortex-l
Edmund Storms <https://plus.google.com/u/0/112904824327993917962?prsrc=4> writes: Yes, but all of these processes you describe are done near absolute zero while using complex apparatus. This has no relationship to cold fusion. ***What about KP Sinha’s Laser experiment in LENR ? Laser stimulation of low-energy nuclear reactions in deuterated palladium http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/oct102006/907.pdf On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>wrote: > > On Feb 9, 2013, at 12:33 PM, Axil Axil wrote: > > Experiments by Piantelli and information about early Rossi systems > indicate that a cold LENR system will produce high energy radiation, but a > hot system will not. > > > Alix, this statement does not describe the evidence. All we know is what > Rossi claims, i.e. that INITIALLY radiation is produced that is reduced as > the process continues. Many people have detected radiation under various > conditions. > > > How can we understand the physical meaning of these experimental results? > > > It has been shown that coherent EMF in the form of time-dependent > potentials can lead to substantial cooling in Bose Einstein condensates in > an open system that allows entropy to be removed. > > > Formation of a Bose-Einstein condensate is routinely accomplished by using > laser light to cool the system – in laser cooling in the form of scattered > photons, in evaporative cooling in the form of discarded atoms. > > > Energy is transferred from atoms to be cooled to atoms which are rejected > from the system. > > > In another example, this cooling technique is also used in cooling > elements in the formation of clusters. > > > Yes, but all of these processes you describe are done near absolute zero > while using complex apparatus. This has no relationship to cold fusion. > > > Ionic clusters consist of a single ion surrounded by one or more neutral > molecules. They are created when a gas is cooled. Molecules in the gaseous > state are widely separated and move about in continual motion. So widely > separated in space are these molecules that they exert no force of > attraction upon one another, and although they frequently collide, their > kinetic energy is so high they will not stick together. These gas molecules > must be cooled to reduce their kinetic energy and associated random motion. > > > As the temperature in the gas drops, however, molecular motion slows and > the molecules begin to gather and stick together. Eventually, the motion > slows sufficiently for intermolecular forces of attraction to bind the > molecules together into clusters that number from a few to a few hundred > individual molecules in size. If the number of neutral molecules > surrounding the ion in each cluster becomes sufficiently large, an > assemblage of clusters will resemble a conventional bulk material--either a > liquid or a solid. > > Three common ways exist to produce clusters: > > a) Gas aggregation sources: This is the oldest and easiest method for > cluster production. Atoms or molecules are evaporated into a flow of rare > gas atoms. The evaporated atoms are cooled in collision with the rare gas. > When the atoms or molecules loose enough energy the cluster production is > started. > > > b) Laser-ablation sources (surface sources, sputtering): Photon or heavy > particle impact on a surface leads to the desorption of atoms or molecules. > The released atoms or molecules are partially ionized and form plasma. > Similar like in the gas aggregation sources the plasma is cooled by present > rare gas that removes kinetic energy from the system and cluster formation > is achieved > > > c) Supersonic cluster sources: A gas under high pressure is expanded > adiabatically through a small nozzle. This is how noble gases are liquefied. > > > In a LENR system where a metal lattice is present, the coherent motion of > the lattice will remove kinetic energy from the active nuclear sites > containing the Bose-Einstein condensates by rejecting kinetic energy > produced in these structures by nuclear processes contained the metal > lattice. > > > This description has no justification in theory or in observation. > Coherent motion of atoms does no occur spontaneously in a lattice. > > > If the coherent motion of the lattice is not robust enough, the radiation > produced by the nuclear reactions will be unmodified by the cold lattice > and escape as gamma rays. > > > I have no idea what you are describing by the above comment. > > Ed > > > > > Cheers: Axil > > On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Edmund Storms <stor...@ix.netcom.com>wrote: > >> Lou, >> >> Any theory that proposes to use tunneling based on electrons being >> concentrated must at the same time show how the resulting energy is >> dissipated. Such energy is dissipated normally by the fusion product >> breaking into two parts, which go off with high energy in directions >> required to conserve momentum. This is called hot fusion and it is well >> known and understood. >> >> In contrast, during cold fusion the fusion product does not fragment. It >> remains as He, but without the gamma emission as is required to dissipate >> the energy. To be consistent with this observation, a theory MUST explain >> how this nuclear energy is dissipated. Simply proposing a process to >> overcome the barrier without showing how the next step violates normal >> behavior is not useful in explaining cold fusion. The Maimon theory is ok >> if it is used to explain hot fusion because this is what would be expected >> and what has been observed when tunneling conditions have been created. >> People have to accept that hot fusion and cold fusion are two entirely >> different phenomenon that play by different rules. Confusion keeps being >> produced by trying to mix these two different effects. >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> On Feb 9, 2013, at 10:09 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: >> >> Ed, >>> >>> I assume you are referring to Maimon's theory, which I am not familiar >>> with. >>> >>> When you say "the expected reaction is hot fusion", are you only >>> referring to highly energetic collisions? >>> >>> Do you think the theory X.Z.Li, et al, involving resonant tunneling >>> (at low kinetic energy), allegedly avoiding energetic byproducts, might >>> be correct? Some references -- >>> >>> "Deuterium (Hydrogen) Flux Permeating through Palladium and Condensed >>> Matter Nuclear Science" >>> http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.**edu.cn/LENR%20home%20page/** >>> acrobat/WeiQdeuteriumh.pdf<http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/LENR%20home%20page/acrobat/WeiQdeuteriumh.pdf> >>> "A Chinese view on summary of condensed matter nuclear science" >>> http://166.111.26.4/**JOFE2004Sept.Vol23No3P217.pdf<http://166.111.26.4/JOFE2004Sept.Vol23No3P217.pdf> >>> "Fusion energy without strong nuclear radiation" >>> http://www.springerlink.com/**index/w4721655219541kk.pdf<http://www.springerlink.com/index/w4721655219541kk.pdf> >>> "Multiple Scattering Theory (MST) and Condensed Matter Nuclear >>> Science—“Super-Absorption” in a Crystal Lattice—" >>> http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.**edu.cn/LENR%20home%20page/** >>> acrobat/LiXZmultiplesc.pdf<http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/LENR%20home%20page/acrobat/LiXZmultiplesc.pdf> >>> >>> I am agnostic on this topic, and am very interested in your view. >>> >>> -- Lou Pagnucco >>> >>> The problem Eric is that once the math is solved, the expected nuclear >>>> reaction is hot fusion, not cold fusion. Consequently, this effort is >>>> a waste of time. This is something the hot fusion field needs to >>>> understand to explain the effect of bombarding materials with >>>> energetic deuterons. The effort has no application to cold fusion. >>>> >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> On Feb 9, 2013, at 9:13 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Eric, >>>>> >>>>> It's good to hear Ron Maimon is trying to develop this theory. >>>>> >>>>> But, the math is truly confusing, bewildering and intimidating - >>>>> even to formulate the problem, let alone solve it. >>>>> When composite particles are involved, calculating tunneling >>>>> probability >>>>> is almost intractable - even in free space, much less in condensed >>>>> matter. >>>>> >>>>> A recent paper on composite particle tunneling - >>>>> "Tunneling of a molecule with many bound states in three dimensions" >>>>> http://iopscience.iop.org/**0953-4075/46/4/045201<http://iopscience.iop.org/0953-4075/46/4/045201> >>>>> (free - with registration) >>>>> - (and, the many references it cites) shows how tricky this is. >>>>> There are some related papers on arxiv.org too. >>>>> >>>>> In the case of LENR, I think the empirical trumps the theoretical. >>>>> >>>>> -- Lou Pagnucco >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Eric Walker wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 11:08 AM, <pagnu...@htdconnect.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> While it discusses the extreme focusing of ~1 MeV proton wave- >>>>>> functions, >>>>>> >>>>>>> perhaps particles/ions in micro-/nano-channels in zeolites, >>>>>>> nano-crevices, nanostructures, ..., experience more wave-function >>>>>>> focusing than expected - possibly increasing tunneling probability >>>>>>> by dramatically increasing overlap of channel particle wave- >>>>>>> functions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Ron Maimon was getting at a similar idea by having two deuterons >>>>>> meet near >>>>>> a palladium spectator nucleus, at the classical turning point where >>>>>> the >>>>>> strength of the positive charge of the palladium nucleus would push >>>>>> the >>>>>> positively charged deuterons back out again. With 20 keV of initial >>>>>> kinetic energy, the deuterons would penetrate the electron shells >>>>>> as far >>>>>> as >>>>>> the K shell before turning around again. At the turning point >>>>>> their de >>>>>> Broglie waves would be "enhanced,", or, presumably, focused, and as a >>>>>> result overlap and tunneling would be more likely. >>>>>> >>>>>> Several significant difficulties with this approach were raised >>>>>> which have >>>>>> not yet been brought to Ron's attention. Presumably he would set us >>>>>> straight on what I misunderstood of what he was saying. >>>>>> >>>>>> Eric >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > >
