Greetings Karl,
I tend to agree with you.  However, there is actually might be a few reasons 
for Apple to consider being kinder to its WO community.

1. They spent a lot of money in having mDimension and in particular Mike Schrag 
produce a lot of capabilities with Project Wonder.  One year ago, we were 
saying that we were all standing on the shoulders of giants.   For this effort 
and contribution by Apple and Mike Schrag, I am grateful.   
2. They still have a huge investment internally.   To maintain their agility, 
it is in their interest to keep a healthy community.  Right now they a growing 
into a company larger than what they had been in the past.  This means a larger 
corporate bureaucracy.    Bureaucracies are not known for their efficiency.  
That is a good reason why they sub contracted to Mike in the first place.
3.  There is no reason why Apple and other companies can contribute well to a 
healthy framework, regardless of what it is called, for mutual benefit.  

Sure Apple can be petty.  However, this is not in their interest.  It fosters a 
poison that tends to consumer good people and has this notion that if certain 
bad apples or people were not there, life would be good.  If the bad apples 
were indeed destructive and malevolent, there would be no argument against such 
an attitude.  However, I do not see such a thing.

I would prefer that good channels be made to support the community at large.  
Apple has such a channel through ownership.  I think that having a set of 
partnerships would be a healthy thing for Apple in this cloud and mobile 
application world that they have helped pioneer.  

But that is just my opinion.  I agree with Paul that channels, guidance, and 
the means to properly assist the community are an essential.   Apple did a good 
thing when they funded Mike.  I think it is time we all came together for a 
positive outcome.

Thank you,

Daniel D. Beatty, Ph.D. Candidate
Computer Scientist, 474300D
Detonation Sciences Branch
On detail for Land Range Data Systems Branch
At Exodus: (760)939-4040
At Pearson: (760)939-7097
iPhone: (806)438-6620

 



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On 
Behalf Of Karl
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2011 9:13
To: Chuck Hill
Cc: [email protected] Dev
Subject: Re: WOWODC 2011 recordings

Apple isn't Oracle (ie. <http://ie.it>  it is not _insane_ when it comes to 
Open Source).

However, I completely agree with Chuck.  There is simply no reason for Apple to 
spend a millisecond thinking about open sourcing WO.  It just isn't even on 
their radar screen (in spite of the RADARs that remain open for it!).

At the same time, Apple relies heavily upon WONDER.  WONDER violates pretty 
much every patent that they have....but they still use it.  Pretty hard to 
litigate against that and...again...I don't think that they will waste a 
millisecond thinking such thoughts.

Unless somehow WONDER/Whistler/+the next big name+ becomes a threat they will 
ignore it or actually start using it....and maybe even contributing to it.

Karl

On Jul 5, 2011, at 8:44 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:




        On Jul 5, 2011, at 1:35 PM, Ramsey Gurley <[email protected]> 
wrote:
        
        

                I was there Hugi and I think I missed something (^_^)  
                


                I though the discussion was about forking Wonder, which seemed 
a little odd to me considering we have github nowadays.  Anyone can fork it and 
if you attract a following, so be it.
                


                If we are discussing a WO fork... I wonder, has anyone ever 
actually asked Apple if they are willing to open source the WO 5.4.3 release?  
                


        Yes. They will not. 
        
        
        

                The Java people made enough noise to get Apple's JDK source 
released to Oracle for OpenJDK.  We aren't as large as they are, but I would 
argue that we are more important to Apple's operations.  
                


        I doubt that. 
        
        
        

                Certainly Apple would see a lot of value in having a healthy 
community of WO devs to pluck.  
                


        I think we have pretty much been fully plucked. 
        
        
        

                Legal issues aside, it would be much easier to simply get 
Apple's blessing.  They have gobs of money.  It isn't like they can't afford to 
throw us a bone. There should at least be a petition to ask them formally if 
that hasn't already been done.
                


        Wasting your time, IMO. 
        
        Chuck
        
        
        


                Ramsey
                


                On Jul 5, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Paul D Yu wrote:
                


                        Of course.
                        


                        Always "Clean" and in a separate room...  ;)
                        


                        Paul
                        

                        On Jul 5, 2011, at 11:14 AM, Hugi Thordarson wrote:
                        


                                                In short, we think that the 
first step to move forward is to stop using the WebObjects "brand" on 
WOCommunity.org and elsewhere, and move to either to the "Project Wonder" name 
or another name.
                                                


                                        Whistler.   
                                        


                                Now I'm *really* bummed not to be there with 
you guys.
                                


                                Out of curiosity, have the words "clean" and 
"room" been mentioned at all?
                                


                                - hugi 
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