Thanks Gerard for pointing out that the 'goals' are probably not as clear. And maybe we are talking with different goals in mind. So let me phrase my goals for this discussion:
I would like to see this list develop into a forum that facilitates healthy and constructive discussions within and between the wider Wikimedia communities and the Wikimedia Foundation staff, board and committees especially. I would like to see that this list becomes a venue where people feel safe enough that community and staff members no longer feel it necessary to warn newcomers that they should not subscribe to this mailing list. I also hope this will be a place where people can expect honest feedback, also when the opinions are not what they expect them to be, or are inconvenient. I think volume is a component of it. However, I wouldn't mind a volume increase when that is an increase in sensible and constructive contributions with new facts and information to a discussion, or when that is because more people find it sensible to ask for input here. It is the repeating of positions and the unhelpful snarky remarks that I would like to see reduced to a minimum. Hopefully that makes sense :) Best, Lodewijk On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hoi, > You indicate that you aim to reduce the volume. I think the number of posts > is at a record low. The notion that the number of edits per person must be > brought down is not a reflection of the number of posts made to this list. > When you disagree on this, show some statistics. > > When you put people on moderation and then further reduce the number of > edits they can make, you are punishing twice. In this the moderators are > judge jury and executioner. > > The notion that people prefer to post on a meta is also not a given. > Personally I do not have the time and the inclination. It is like facebook > a timesinc that is unlikely to make much of a difference because of the > vested interest of those at Meta. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 23 August 2017 at 06:03, John Mark Vandenberg <jay...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi list members, > > > > The list admins (hereafter 'we', being Austin, Asaf, Shani and I, your > > humble narrator) regularly receive complaints about the frequent > > posters on this list, as well as about the unpleasant atmosphere some > > posters (some of them frequent) create. > > > > It is natural that frequent posters will say specific things that more > > frequently annoy other list members, but often the complaints are due > > to the volume of messages rather than the content of the messages. > > > > We are floating some suggestions aimed specifically at reducing the > > volume, hopefully motivating frequent posters to self-moderate more, > > but these proposed limits are actually intending to increasing the > > quality of the discourse without heavy subjective moderation. > > > > The first proposal impacts all posters to this list, and the last > > three proposals are aimed at providing a more clear framework within > > which criticism and whistle-blowing are permitted, but that critics > > are prevented from drowning out other discussions. The bandwidth that > > will be given to critics should be established in advance, reducing > > need to use subjective moderation of the content when a limit to the > > volume will often achieve the same result. > > -- > > > > Proposal #1: Monthly 'soft quota' reduced from 30 to 15 > > > > The existing soft quota of 30 posts per person has practically never > > been exceeded in the past year, and yet many list subscribers still > > clearly feel that a few individuals overwhelm the list. This suggests > > the current quota is too high. > > > > A review of the stats at > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/mail-lists/wikimedia-l.html show very few > > people go over 15 in a month, and quite often the reason for people > > exceeding 15 per month is because they are replying to other list > > members who have already exceeded 15 per month, and sometimes they are > > repeatedly directly or indirectly asking the person to stop repeating > > themselves to allow some space for other list members also have their > > opinion heard. > > -- > > > > Proposal #2: Posts by globally banned people not permitted > > > > As WMF-banned people are already banned from mailing lists, this > > proposal is to apply the same ‘global’ approach to any people who have > > been globally banned by the community according to the > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_bans policy. > > > > This proposal does not prevent proxying, or canvassing, or “meat > > puppetry” as defined by English Wikipedia policy. The list admins > > would prefer that globally banned people communicate their grievances > > via established members of our community who can guide them, rather > > than the list admins initially guiding these globally banned people on > > how to revise their posts so they are suitable for this audience, and > > then required to block them when they do not follow advice. The role > > of list moderators is clearer and simpler if we are only patrolling > > the boundaries and not repeatedly personally engaged with helping > > globally banned users. > > -- > > > > Proposal #3: Identity of an account locked / blocked / banned by two > > Wikimedia communities limited to five (5) posts per month > > > > This proposal is intended to strike a balance between openness and > > quality of discourse. > > > > Banned people occasionally use the wikimedia-l mailing list as a > > substitute of the meta Request for comment system, and banned people > > also occasionally provide constructive criticisms and thought > > provoking views. This proposal hopes to allow that to continue. > > > > However people who have been banned on a few projects also use this > > list as their “last stand”, having already exhausted the community > > patience on the wikis. Sometimes the last stand is brief, but > > occasionally a banned person is able to maintain sufficient decorum > > that they are not moderated or banned from the list, and mailing list > > readers need to suffer month after month of the banned person > > dominating the mailing lists with time that they would previously have > > spent editing on the wikis. > > -- > > > > Proposal #4: Undisclosed alternative identities limited to five (5) > > posts per month > > > > Posting using fake identities allows people to shield their real life > > *and* their Wikimedia editing 'account' from the repercussions of > > their actions. This provision to allow fake identities on wikimedia-l > > is necessary for whistle-blowing, and this mailing list has been used > > for that purpose at important junctures in the history of the > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > However it is more frequently abused, especially by some ‘critics’ who > > have used incessant hyperbole and snark and baiting to generally cause > > stress to many readers. Sometimes this is also accompanied with many > > list posts on various unrelated threads as the ‘critic’ believes their > > criticism is so important that all other discussions about Wikimedia > > should be diverted until their problem has been resolved to their > > satisfaction, which is unlikely anyway. > > > > Note this explicitly does not include anyone posting using their real > > world identity, whether or not they have a Wikimedia account. > > > > Where a poster does not clearly link to either Wikimedia account, or > > does not appear to be using a real identity, and only after it is > > exceeding the five post limit, the list admins will privately ask the > > poster to either verify their identity or stop posting until the end > > of the month. Very frequently a whistle-blower is able and even > > prefers to be documenting the problem on meta, but needs the high > > profile of this list to spark the discussion and draw attention to > > their meta page. > > > > > > --- > > > > The five post allowance for proposals 3 and 4 are to ensure that > > anyone who has not been globally banned can post criticisms without > > repercussions, which is vital for whistleblowing and transparency > > generally, but they need to use their five posts per month wisely. > > Once they have used their five posts, community members can reply with > > less concern about being drawn into a direct argument with the poster. > > It aims to force the poster to listen to others in the community once > > their limit of five posts has been reached. > > > > If there is support for these proposals, the list admins would not > > immediately add moderation or bans, but would implement them as > > needed, when we notice someone has exceeded one of these limits, and > > we would make a note on a meta page where the community can review > > these actions without allowing moderation meta-discussion to dominate > > the discourse on the mailing list. Refinements to the list moderation > > limits can then occur organically as we see how these rules plays out > > in practise. > > > > > > The RFC is at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/ > > wikimedia-l-post-limits > > > > However please also feel welcome to reply on-list if you wish to > > express explicit support or opposition to any of the four proposals > > above (please identify them by number, to ease counting). We will > > count votes (here and on the meta RFC) after two weeks, and post a > > more refined final version back to this mailing list. > > > > The list administrators will default to *enacting* all four proposals, > > but will refrain from enacting any proposal receiving more opposition > > than support. > > > > -- > > John Vandenberg > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
