Rogol you yet again misrepresent what has been stated. Seddon
On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 5:26 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com> wrote: > One proposal involves posters being asked to verify their real-life > identity to the list moderators. Perhaps the moderators will supplement > that proposal with a description of the forms of identification they would > require, and privacy policy that they would apply to protect such > information. > > Reed > > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > For 1 I like the higher soft limit at 30 15 feels to low, though maybe we > > could encourage a bit id discretion on the list admins behalf if someone > is > > approaching the soft limit but not productively contributing to > discussions > > or being repeative. > > > > For 2 global ban should see a person removed form all activities of the > > community. > > > > For 3 person person is banned by more than one community should be > limited > > to topics not related to those communities or the ban > > > > For 4 I think we need to put some trust in the list admins purely because > > the purpose for posting anonymously may require significant discussion > and > > information, though it should be noted that such activity should restrict > > the use of their "public" account for that particular discussion > > > > On 23 August 2017 at 19:35, Lodewijk <lodew...@effeietsanders.org> > wrote: > > > > > Thanks Gerard for pointing out that the 'goals' are probably not as > > clear. > > > And maybe we are talking with different goals in mind. So let me phrase > > my > > > goals for this discussion: > > > > > > I would like to see this list develop into a forum that facilitates > > healthy > > > and constructive discussions within and between the wider Wikimedia > > > communities and the Wikimedia Foundation staff, board and committees > > > especially. I would like to see that this list becomes a venue where > > people > > > feel safe enough that community and staff members no longer feel it > > > necessary to warn newcomers that they should not subscribe to this > > mailing > > > list. I also hope this will be a place where people can expect honest > > > feedback, also when the opinions are not what they expect them to be, > or > > > are inconvenient. > > > > > > I think volume is a component of it. However, I wouldn't mind a volume > > > increase when that is an increase in sensible and constructive > > > contributions with new facts and information to a discussion, or when > > that > > > is because more people find it sensible to ask for input here. It is > the > > > repeating of positions and the unhelpful snarky remarks that I would > like > > > to see reduced to a minimum. > > > > > > Hopefully that makes sense :) > > > > > > Best, > > > Lodewijk > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Gerard Meijssen < > > > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hoi, > > > > You indicate that you aim to reduce the volume. I think the number of > > > posts > > > > is at a record low. The notion that the number of edits per person > must > > > be > > > > brought down is not a reflection of the number of posts made to this > > > list. > > > > When you disagree on this, show some statistics. > > > > > > > > When you put people on moderation and then further reduce the number > of > > > > edits they can make, you are punishing twice. In this the moderators > > are > > > > judge jury and executioner. > > > > > > > > The notion that people prefer to post on a meta is also not a given. > > > > Personally I do not have the time and the inclination. It is like > > > facebook > > > > a timesinc that is unlikely to make much of a difference because of > the > > > > vested interest of those at Meta. > > > > Thanks, > > > > GerardM > > > > > > > > On 23 August 2017 at 06:03, John Mark Vandenberg <jay...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi list members, > > > > > > > > > > The list admins (hereafter 'we', being Austin, Asaf, Shani and I, > > your > > > > > humble narrator) regularly receive complaints about the frequent > > > > > posters on this list, as well as about the unpleasant atmosphere > some > > > > > posters (some of them frequent) create. > > > > > > > > > > It is natural that frequent posters will say specific things that > > more > > > > > frequently annoy other list members, but often the complaints are > due > > > > > to the volume of messages rather than the content of the messages. > > > > > > > > > > We are floating some suggestions aimed specifically at reducing the > > > > > volume, hopefully motivating frequent posters to self-moderate > more, > > > > > but these proposed limits are actually intending to increasing the > > > > > quality of the discourse without heavy subjective moderation. > > > > > > > > > > The first proposal impacts all posters to this list, and the last > > > > > three proposals are aimed at providing a more clear framework > within > > > > > which criticism and whistle-blowing are permitted, but that critics > > > > > are prevented from drowning out other discussions. The bandwidth > that > > > > > will be given to critics should be established in advance, reducing > > > > > need to use subjective moderation of the content when a limit to > the > > > > > volume will often achieve the same result. > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Proposal #1: Monthly 'soft quota' reduced from 30 to 15 > > > > > > > > > > The existing soft quota of 30 posts per person has practically > never > > > > > been exceeded in the past year, and yet many list subscribers still > > > > > clearly feel that a few individuals overwhelm the list. This > suggests > > > > > the current quota is too high. > > > > > > > > > > A review of the stats at > > > > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/mail-lists/wikimedia-l.html show very > > few > > > > > people go over 15 in a month, and quite often the reason for people > > > > > exceeding 15 per month is because they are replying to other list > > > > > members who have already exceeded 15 per month, and sometimes they > > are > > > > > repeatedly directly or indirectly asking the person to stop > repeating > > > > > themselves to allow some space for other list members also have > their > > > > > opinion heard. > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Proposal #2: Posts by globally banned people not permitted > > > > > > > > > > As WMF-banned people are already banned from mailing lists, this > > > > > proposal is to apply the same ‘global’ approach to any people who > > have > > > > > been globally banned by the community according to the > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_bans policy. > > > > > > > > > > This proposal does not prevent proxying, or canvassing, or “meat > > > > > puppetry” as defined by English Wikipedia policy. The list admins > > > > > would prefer that globally banned people communicate their > grievances > > > > > via established members of our community who can guide them, rather > > > > > than the list admins initially guiding these globally banned people > > on > > > > > how to revise their posts so they are suitable for this audience, > and > > > > > then required to block them when they do not follow advice. The > role > > > > > of list moderators is clearer and simpler if we are only patrolling > > > > > the boundaries and not repeatedly personally engaged with helping > > > > > globally banned users. > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Proposal #3: Identity of an account locked / blocked / banned by > two > > > > > Wikimedia communities limited to five (5) posts per month > > > > > > > > > > This proposal is intended to strike a balance between openness and > > > > > quality of discourse. > > > > > > > > > > Banned people occasionally use the wikimedia-l mailing list as a > > > > > substitute of the meta Request for comment system, and banned > people > > > > > also occasionally provide constructive criticisms and thought > > > > > provoking views. This proposal hopes to allow that to continue. > > > > > > > > > > However people who have been banned on a few projects also use this > > > > > list as their “last stand”, having already exhausted the community > > > > > patience on the wikis. Sometimes the last stand is brief, but > > > > > occasionally a banned person is able to maintain sufficient decorum > > > > > that they are not moderated or banned from the list, and mailing > list > > > > > readers need to suffer month after month of the banned person > > > > > dominating the mailing lists with time that they would previously > > have > > > > > spent editing on the wikis. > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Proposal #4: Undisclosed alternative identities limited to five (5) > > > > > posts per month > > > > > > > > > > Posting using fake identities allows people to shield their real > life > > > > > *and* their Wikimedia editing 'account' from the repercussions of > > > > > their actions. This provision to allow fake identities on > wikimedia-l > > > > > is necessary for whistle-blowing, and this mailing list has been > used > > > > > for that purpose at important junctures in the history of the > > > > > Wikimedia movement. > > > > > > > > > > However it is more frequently abused, especially by some ‘critics’ > > who > > > > > have used incessant hyperbole and snark and baiting to generally > > cause > > > > > stress to many readers. Sometimes this is also accompanied with > many > > > > > list posts on various unrelated threads as the ‘critic’ believes > > their > > > > > criticism is so important that all other discussions about > Wikimedia > > > > > should be diverted until their problem has been resolved to their > > > > > satisfaction, which is unlikely anyway. > > > > > > > > > > Note this explicitly does not include anyone posting using their > real > > > > > world identity, whether or not they have a Wikimedia account. > > > > > > > > > > Where a poster does not clearly link to either Wikimedia account, > or > > > > > does not appear to be using a real identity, and only after it is > > > > > exceeding the five post limit, the list admins will privately ask > the > > > > > poster to either verify their identity or stop posting until the > end > > > > > of the month. Very frequently a whistle-blower is able and even > > > > > prefers to be documenting the problem on meta, but needs the high > > > > > profile of this list to spark the discussion and draw attention to > > > > > their meta page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > The five post allowance for proposals 3 and 4 are to ensure that > > > > > anyone who has not been globally banned can post criticisms without > > > > > repercussions, which is vital for whistleblowing and transparency > > > > > generally, but they need to use their five posts per month wisely. > > > > > Once they have used their five posts, community members can reply > > with > > > > > less concern about being drawn into a direct argument with the > > poster. > > > > > It aims to force the poster to listen to others in the community > once > > > > > their limit of five posts has been reached. > > > > > > > > > > If there is support for these proposals, the list admins would not > > > > > immediately add moderation or bans, but would implement them as > > > > > needed, when we notice someone has exceeded one of these limits, > and > > > > > we would make a note on a meta page where the community can review > > > > > these actions without allowing moderation meta-discussion to > dominate > > > > > the discourse on the mailing list. Refinements to the list > moderation > > > > > limits can then occur organically as we see how these rules plays > out > > > > > in practise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The RFC is at https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Requests_for_comment/ > > > > > wikimedia-l-post-limits > > > > > > > > > > However please also feel welcome to reply on-list if you wish to > > > > > express explicit support or opposition to any of the four proposals > > > > > above (please identify them by number, to ease counting). We will > > > > > count votes (here and on the meta RFC) after two weeks, and post a > > > > > more refined final version back to this mailing list. > > > > > > > > > > The list administrators will default to *enacting* all four > > proposals, > > > > > but will refrain from enacting any proposal receiving more > opposition > > > > > than support. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > John Vandenberg > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > GN. > > President Wikimedia Australia > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > -- Seddon *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* *Wikimedia Foundation* _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
