Interesting and well-considered perspective, Rob. I appreciate your voice in this discussion.
Beyond this specific incident, which remains important, I agree, would any of the three policies proposed address this issue? Is there a policy amendment that you would like to see? Thank you for your constructive participation and your clarity, /a On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 9:12 AM, Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com> wrote: > I am grateful that the moderators have taken some action, but I am > disappointed that contacting a person's employer is not yet seen as an > uncrossable line here. > > Out of respect to your call for civility I will refrain from directly > responding to the person in question despite his allegations against me. > It is a mistake to frame this as a free speech issue. It is of course in > the interests of a person engaging in bullying and harassing behavior to > claim people are trying to suppress their powerful truths, but there is no > reason we have to accept this duplicitous framing. The content of the > message is immaterial, the behavior is the issue. Some people may see this > as a grey area given that it was a Foundation employee, but I see it as a > slippery slope. Seddon's job is almost certainly safe, but this might not > be the case for the next victim. Will the poster in question decide that I > am "bullying and harassing" him and attempt to contact my employer next? > > Most of my fellow board members of my chapter are the employees of US > government agencies or connected to the Foundation as an employee or a > grant recipient. Given the unusual political climate in the US I worry > that the former group are particularly vulnerable to harassment targeting > their employment. (Media outlets favored by the current US presidential > administration have targeted individual Wikimedia editors, including > myself, in the past.) If participants on this list are allowed to engage > in this sort of harassment without real consequence, I will advise that my > chapter and its board members and volunteers no longer participate on this > list due to the risk to their livelihoods. > > > On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Shani Evenstein <shani.e...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Dear Wikimedia-l, > > > > Rogol has been placed under moderation, but at this point no decision has > > been made to ban him from the list. As long as his messages are > reasonable, > > respectful and on point, his messages will go through. We agreed that it > is > > important to allow a diversity of voices to be heard, including those of > > "frequent flyers" in the list, especially as we work collaboratively on > > next steps towards a healthier community atmosphere. > > > > In addition, we are asking everyone to refrain from focusing on specific > > individuals posting to the list, put any personal issues aside and stay > on > > problem. We want as many people as possible to productively and > objectively > > participate in the discussion, till we draft clearer guidelines for > posting > > to the list. We are aware that these guidelines will not automagically > fix > > all of our issues as a global community, but we believe they will help > > reduce the noise substantially. Do keep on debating. We are trying to > > intervene as little as possible at this point and let the debate run its > > course. > > > > Best, > > Shani Evenstein, on behalf of the Wikimedia-l Admins. > > > > On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 8:52 PM, James Salsman <jsals...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> Why are we having this RFC prior to the survey which was discussed at > >> length less than a year ago? > >> > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:James_Salsman#Peri > >> odic_survey_prototype > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Robert Fernandez > >> <wikigamal...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > Since Rogol has followed through on his threat he should be banned > from > >> the > >> > list, or we should have a public statement from the moderators > regarding > >> > why they will not do so. > >> > > >> > I can't imagine many actions that would have a more chilling effect on > >> > participation here than one of this list's most frequent posters > >> contacting > >> > your employer because he disagrees with what you have to say. > >> > > >> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Joseph Seddon <jsed...@wikimedia.org > > > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >> Since you kindly emailed my line manage Rogol, I wanted to confirm > >> that my > >> >> choice of words were very carefully chosen. > >> >> > >> >> And I stand by them. > >> >> > >> >> Seddon > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Rogol Domedonfors < > >> domedonf...@gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > Joseph > >> >> > > >> >> > I chose my wording quite carefully, and suggest that you do so too. > >> I > >> >> said > >> >> > that the proposal "involves", not "is equal to" real-life identity > >> To > >> >> the > >> >> > extent that real-life identities are involved, it is reasonable to > >> ask > >> >> how > >> >> > that personal information is going to be handled. For some reason, > >> you > >> >> > seem keen to derail that part of the discussion by elevating a > >> quibble > >> >> over > >> >> > your hasty misunderstanding of my wording into an accusation, > which I > >> >> > reject, of generalised misconduct. If you have some comment to > make > >> >> about > >> >> > the handling of personal information, please do so. > >> >> > > >> >> > May I suggest that you withdraw your original posting, apologise to > >> the > >> >> > membership of this list for the unconstructive nature of your > >> posting, > >> >> and > >> >> > to me for its aggressive, insulting and incorrect content. > >> >> Alternatively, > >> >> > perhaps you would prefer me to ask your line manager whether this > is > >> the > >> >> > sort of behaviour that she expects you to exhibit in a public > forum. > >> >> > > >> >> > Reginald > >> >> > > >> >> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Joseph Seddon < > >> jsed...@wikimedia.org> > >> >> > wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > Real identity does not equal real-life identity. You can mask > your > >> >> > > pseudonymous identity and pose as a third party similarly > >> pseudonymous > >> >> > > individual. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Seddon > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> >> > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> >> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> >> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> >> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma > >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> >> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsu > >> bscribe> > >> >> > > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> >> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> >> > wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ma > >> ilman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> >> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > unsubscribe> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> Seddon > >> >> > >> >> *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)* > >> >> *Wikimedia Foundation* > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> >> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > >> >> wiki/Wikimedia-l > >> >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > >> i/Wikimedia-l > >> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > , > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > >> i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik > >> i/Wikimedia-l > >> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
