(posting in my volunteer capacity) Echoing Andrew's, SJ's, and Ziko's comments, I will add that perhaps all it would take is some collective energy to endorse these long-standing observations, and signal to WMF that we no longer have to pretend Wikinews is a worthwhile model (as SJ, Paulo, and Andrew spell out, *to the extent* we can do news (which is far from 100%, being mostly news-synthesis and contextualizing), we do a far better job through and in Wikipedia). I think no action has been taken because it is neither an urgent problem, nor an important one to most contributors, so if WMF were to "sunset" Wikinews, it would upset the few die-hard Wikinewsies[1], and please almost no-one.
If a significant number of people were to see the *opportunity cost* we pay due to this confusion and branding issue (ably described by SJ in his anecdote about the fact-checker event), and express their concern (e.g. via an RFC), perhaps there would be found more appetite to provide the formal nod to shutter (not delete) Wikinews, and avoid misleading new volunteers and outsiders into believing Wikinews can work. I have tried to contribute toward this goal with a session at the Wikimedia Conference 2013 (in Milan)[2] focused on *the cost* of keeping up the appearance of Wikinews (and Wikiversity, and Wikipedias in languages with ~2000 speakers) as worthwhile endeavors. While there were some who agreed, I mostly managed to upset some people, and there was no appetite at WMF (at the time) to take up that cause. So we are probably doomed to have these conversations periodically (indeed, that itself is one of the costs I listed), until such time as some critical mass is reached and enough people want to be rid of this historical baggage. I would like to see us do so, but as a staff member, I think it is not for me to start an RFC. A. [1] Some years ago a Wikinewsie user group was created. It failed to sustain enough interest to meet the single user group duty of submitting an annual activity report, and exist beyond its inaugural year. [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Conference_2013/Documentation/Day_3#Wikinews,_Wikiversity,_Rapa_Nui_and_other_lost_causes seems to be the best (though not very good) documentation of that session. Oh wait, there's also this, uh, Prezi: https://prezi.com/gg3wadct9fec/wikinews-wikiversity-rapa-nui-and-other-lost-causes/ On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 2:04 AM Andrew Lih <andrew....@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Andrew > > > > It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the policies > that > > make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V, NORUSH) are a > > poor fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand, Wikipedia > is > > a success as a news-gathering operation. These seem inconsistent to me. > > > As Wikimedians we are secondary source news summarizers rather than primary > source news gatherers. That’s where the difference lies primarily. > > I have been a fan of the times Wikinews did original interviews with > notable folks [1] so this is perhaps a sustainable niche. But as a direct > news wire competitor to AP, Reuters or AFP, no. > > [1] > https://en.m.wikinews.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres_discusses_the_future_of_Israel > > > > However, I conclude from what you're saying that the best way forward is > to > > fold the Wikinews operation into Wikipedia. Is that right? > > > Fold Wikinews altogether so it doesn’t confuse the public. Wikipedia > editors are already doing a stellar job. > > Andrew > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 PM Andrew Lih <andrew....@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers < > > > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language) Wikipedia > > > seems > > > > to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely consistent with > its > > > > encyclopediac mission: perhaps that's the reason. Maybe the WMF > should > > > > sort out the demarcation issues. > > > > > > > > > > Jennifer, > > > > > > This has been a topic of discussion for more than a decade and the vast > > > majority of the community has converged on the conclusion that Wikinews > > > hasn't and won't ever work at any scale given its fundamental > properties. > > > > > > News is often described as "the best obtainable version of the truth > > given > > > the constraints of a deadline." News depends on memorializing direct > > > observation at a point in time. Therefore, the following policies that > > make > > > Wikipedia work are a bad fit for original, deadline reporting: > > > > > > Wikipedia:NOR - no original research > > > Wikipedia:RS - requirement for reliable sources > > > Wikipedia:V - verifiability > > > Wikipedia:NORUSH - there is no deadline/eventualism > > > > > > Most anyone who tries Wikinews first hand will experience this mismatch > > and > > > realize it is a poor fit. > > > > > > However, rather than lament why Wikinews doesn't work, we should > > celebrate > > > the fact that we have found a better mode: entries that evolve minute > to > > > minute (oftentimes second to second) to best reflect the world as we > know > > > it. Embrace that new, live, constantly updated snapshot of reality – > the > > > Wikipedia article. > > > > > > If you want to see some of the earlier debates about the origins of > > > Wikinews, October 2004 is a good place to look: > > > [1] > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/thread.html > > > [2] > > > > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/061017.html > > > > > > -Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > -- > -Andrew Lih > Author of The Wikipedia Revolution > US National Archives Citizen Archivist of the Year (2016) > Knight Foundation grant recipient - Wikipedia Space (2015) > Wikimedia DC - Outreach and GLAM > Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American > University, Columbia University, USC > --- > Email: and...@andrewlih.com > WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado > PROJECT: Wikipedia Space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- Asaf Bartov <asaf.bar...@gmail.com> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
