Good point Yaroslav, I agree with you entirely. That is how we who are doing the free work see it. ( I feel reasonably confident that this is a widespread if not universal opinion of neutral editors) The WMF may benefit from our input, but that is not the main point at all. We remain entirely free to vote with our feet. It is up to the board to assess whether net gain or net loss is likely to ensue for each proposal. If they choose options which have a high risk of net loss they fail in their duty. History will judge. A lot of misconception going on. Cheers, P
-----Original Message----- From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Yaroslav Blanter Sent: 24 August 2019 23:15 To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here! We are not "working for WMF for free". We are actually not working for WMF at all. This is a completely false premise for any discussion. Cheers Yaroslav On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 10:39 PM Jeff Hawke <geoffey.ha...@gmail.com> wrote: > Gerard > > A good point. The "community" in one sense is simply the collection of all > those people who happen over any given time period to be working for the > WMF for free. In another sense, it is the structures and cultures found on > the various projects. I think my question could best have been phrased in > terms of the first meaning -- that is, does the WMF Board expect that after > these recommendations are enacted, and, as we may reasonably predict, a > large proportion of the current volunteers cease their invlvement, that > there will be a sufficient number of continuing and new volunteers to > sustain the projects in the way the WMF desires. It seems odd that the > Board would not have even begun to consider this question, but it is of > course for them and not for us to decide. > > Jeff > > On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 7:10 PM Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > > wrote: > > > Hoi, > > Your notion of community is what I question. It is in your refusal of > > accepting that English Wikipedia is not a safe place, in your notion that > > the WMF failed, you fail to accept that it is the WMF that is the arbiter > > of last resort. You also fail to appreciate that the Wikimedia Foundation > > is not a democracy. Only some of the board members are elected by the > > community. The notion that elected officials are beholden to the > electorate > > has been spectacularly put on display in the United States so no they are > > not beholden to you nor me. > > > > "We" do not consider facts, we hide behind opinions. The result is that > our > > projects could do so much better once opinions are left for what they are > > in the face of proven facts. We claim our references are important but > > references to our behaviour have been reduced to who said what, where and > > when. > > > > Maybe the recommendations of working groups are not better in your > opinion > > nor mine. In the end it does not matter because there is so much that > needs > > an overhaul that defensive postures are exactly the behaviour that is > best > > to be disregarded. What is needed is accepting the need for change, > > consider what the recommendations are and consider them along the lines > of > > how we could improve upon them. > > Thanks > > GerardM > > > > On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 19:20, Peter Southwood < > > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> > > wrote: > > > > > Gerard, > > > It is not clear who you are addressing here, but I am going to assume > it > > > is Benjamin, who made the original claim. It is a fair question, and > some > > > clarification would be welcome. > > > English Wikipedia may have failed to provide a safe environment, but > the > > > WMF has failed possibly even more "spectacularly", and the > > recommendations > > > of the Working Group do not appear to be likely to be any better or > more > > > effective. > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > > Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen > > > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2019 6:29 PM > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are > > > here! > > > > > > Hoi, > > > May I ask what you mean with "the" community? If anything the Wikimedia > > > community exists in some 300 parts and every parts has as many distinct > > > opinions. There are essential conflicts of interest, by some there is a > > > sense of entitlement, either based on possession or based on promises > > made. > > > > > > In many ways, what Jan-Bart wrote at the time makes as much sense then > as > > > it made now. The model of self governance within a project works up to > a > > > point but when it is then pointed out to it where it fails to meet > > > expectations, like it does when it is tasked to provide a safe > > environment, > > > it fails spectacularly. There is plenty of evidence showing how the > well > > > fortified positions the English Wikipedia community among others has > > taken, > > > fails our readers in providing the best possible quality. > > > > > > So what community and why should we bother when it is not even that > great > > > as an abstraction. > > > Thanks, > > > GerardM > > > > > > On Sat, 24 Aug 2019 at 17:48, Peter Southwood < > > > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Benjamin, > > > > Has the board or any member of the board made any statement > suggesting > > > > that the board might overrule the community in this matter? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] > On > > > > Behalf Of Benjamin Ikuta > > > > Sent: 24 August 2019 07:12 > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations > are > > > > here! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the > community > > in > > > > such a massive way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group > > > > > position at this point in time. > > > > > > > > > > J > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke < > geoffey.ha...@gmail.com > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> James > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks for that. As a member of the Board, would you clarify the > > > > Board's > > > > >> position on whether it is prepared to see the final > Recommendations > > > > >> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community? > > > > >> > > > > >> Jeff > > > > >> > > > > >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> James > > > > >>> > > > > >>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke < > > geoffey.ha...@gmail.com> > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > >>> > > > > >>>> Paulo, > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia > > > > community > > > > >>>> does not approve some of the recommendations". You may recall > > that > > > > >> just > > > > >>>> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, > > > > >>> expressed > > > > >>>> the opinion > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)&diff=prev&oldid=9585319 > > > > >>>> over > > > > >>>> a much less dramatic change. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> All of this is going to require change, change that might not > be > > > > >>>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part > > of > > > > >> this > > > > >>>> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide > to > > > > >> take a > > > > >>>> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, > you > > > have > > > > >> to > > > > >>>> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that > next > > > step > > > > >>> when > > > > >>>> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that > you > > > > will > > > > >>>> return when the time is right. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today. > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Jeff > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta < > > > > >>>> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>>> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the > > Wikimedia > > > > >>>>> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the > > WGs > > > > >>> 8and > > > > >>>>> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around > > > > >>> December. > > > > >>>>> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community > will > > > > >> only > > > > >>> be > > > > >>>>> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already > in > > > the > > > > >>>>> process of implementation. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if > the > > > > >>>> Wikimedia > > > > >>>>> community does not approve some of the recommendations that > pass > > > all > > > > >>> the > > > > >>>>> way till implementation phase. > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Paulo > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>> Nicole Ebber <nicole.eb...@wikimedia.de> escreveu no dia > quinta, > > > > >>>>> 22/08/2019 > > > > >>>>> à(s) 11:58: > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Dear all, > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great > seeing > > so > > > > >>> much > > > > >>>>>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for > > > > >> building > > > > >>>> our > > > > >>>>>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and > > > > >> clarifications. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> DRAFTS > > > > >>>>>> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently > > > > >> shared > > > > >>>> are > > > > >>>>>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, > but > > > > >>>> working > > > > >>>>>> documents that are currently being refined by the working > > groups. > > > > >>> Some > > > > >>>>>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further > > > > >>> development, > > > > >>>>>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the > > > next > > > > >>> few > > > > >>>>>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give > > > > >>>> everyone a > > > > >>>>>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight > into > > > > >>>> multiple > > > > >>>>>> progress levels. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values, > priorities > > > and > > > > >>>>>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A > > > > >>>> recommendation > > > > >>>>> to > > > > >>>>>> change the existing license model, for example, will not just > go > > > > >>>> through > > > > >>>>> a > > > > >>>>>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into > > the > > > > >>>>> reasoning > > > > >>>>>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what > could > > > be > > > > >>>> ways > > > > >>>>> to > > > > >>>>>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest > to > > > > >> look > > > > >>>> into > > > > >>>>>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included > in > > > > >> the > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, > > > > >>> instead > > > > >>>> of > > > > >>>>>> rushing to a quick fix. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> INTEGRATION > > > > >>>>>> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at > > > Wikimania > > > > >>> and > > > > >>>>> via > > > > >>>>>> different movement channels and incorporating it into the next > > > > >>>> iteration > > > > >>>>> of > > > > >>>>>> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a > > basis > > > > >> for > > > > >>>>>> harmonization across working groups. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. > > Some > > > > >> of > > > > >>>> it > > > > >>>>>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific > > principles > > > > >> or > > > > >>>>>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side > or > > > > >>>> already > > > > >>>>>> addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to > be > > > > >>>>> considered > > > > >>>>>> in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic > > > > >> input > > > > >>>> will > > > > >>>>>> be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> TIMELINE > > > > >>>>>> We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible > and > > > the > > > > >>>>>> translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania > participants > > > > >> could > > > > >>>>> read > > > > >>>>>> and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we > > will > > > > >> do > > > > >>>>>> targeted, public outreach to online project communities in > > > multiple > > > > >>>>>> languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall > > > > >> direction > > > > >>> of > > > > >>>>> the > > > > >>>>>> recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are > > already > > > > >>>> working > > > > >>>>>> on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare > > for > > > > >>>>>> harmonization. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we > will > > > > >>> bring > > > > >>>> 3 > > > > >>>>>> representatives from each Working Group together to work to > > > > >> develop a > > > > >>>>> more > > > > >>>>>> coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported > by > > > > >>>>>> facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We > > > have > > > > >>>> also > > > > >>>>>> invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie > > > > >>> D’Costa > > > > >>>>>> (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia > > > > >> Deutschland) > > > > >>>> to > > > > >>>>>> the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from > their > > > > >> work > > > > >>>> and > > > > >>>>>> leadership in the movement and beyond. They will be active > > > > >> listeners > > > > >>>> and > > > > >>>>>> can challenge recommendations by pointing out risks and > > > > >> consequences > > > > >>> on > > > > >>>>> the > > > > >>>>>> organizational and movement level. They also participate as > the > > > > >>>>>> representatives of organizations that may be impacted by the > > > > >>>>>> recommendations. Involving them early is important so they can > > > > >>>> anticipate > > > > >>>>>> any possible changes for their staff and programs, and plan > for > > > > >>>>>> implementation. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Our aim is to release recommendations in November 2019, and > > > present > > > > >>>> them > > > > >>>>> to > > > > >>>>>> the Board of Trustees for approval in December. We will need > the > > > > >>> legal > > > > >>>>>> authority of the board for some of the recommendations, while > > > > >> others > > > > >>>> will > > > > >>>>>> then be further delegated to other community mechanisms and > > > > >>> structures > > > > >>>>> for > > > > >>>>>> approval or further consultation.[1] There will be additional > > > > >> public > > > > >>>>>> consultation activities around implementation that will be > > > > >> discussed > > > > >>>> and > > > > >>>>>> owned across the movement. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> WORKING GROUPS > > > > >>>>>> We have chosen the working group model to ensure that the > > process > > > > >>> that > > > > >>>>>> embarks to make significant changes to our movement structures > > is > > > > >>> owned > > > > >>>>> by > > > > >>>>>> the community. Members of the nine working group were selected > > by > > > a > > > > >>>>>> steering committee and the groups were established in July > > > 2019.[2] > > > > >>>> Group > > > > >>>>>> members come from different parts of the movement, e.g. from > > > > >>> different > > > > >>>>>> regions and languages, from individual contributors and > > organized > > > > >>>> groups, > > > > >>>>>> and with different volunteer and staff roles, incl. Wikimedia > > > > >>>> Foundation > > > > >>>>>> staff and board. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> The groups are doing an amazing job. With many of them being > > > > >>>> volunteers, > > > > >>>>> or > > > > >>>>>> doing this work on top of their regular jobs, creating the > draft > > > > >>>>>> recommendations is a huge achievement. They first needed to > > form, > > > > >>> storm > > > > >>>>> and > > > > >>>>>> norm as a group and figure out how to best work together > across > > > > >> time > > > > >>>>> zones, > > > > >>>>>> languages, and contexts. They then took a deep dive into the > > > > >>> substance > > > > >>>>> and > > > > >>>>>> identified the scope of their work and the specific questions > to > > > > >>> tackle > > > > >>>>> for > > > > >>>>>> us as a movement to advance in our strategic direction. The > > > > >>> development > > > > >>>>> of > > > > >>>>>> recommendations has started in spring this year, and – aside > > from > > > > >>> many > > > > >>>>>> online calls, asynchronous work and scarce in-person meetings > – > > > > >>>> included > > > > >>>>>> incorporating community conversations and external expertise. > It > > > is > > > > >>>> only > > > > >>>>> to > > > > >>>>>> the hard work of these groups that we finally have something > > > > >> tangible > > > > >>>> in > > > > >>>>>> front of us that we can all react to and help further improve > to > > > > >>> build > > > > >>>>> our > > > > >>>>>> future together. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Please join us in thanking, celebrating and supporting them, > > > rather > > > > >>>> than > > > > >>>>>> rushing to conclusions or arguing over details. Please > > contribute > > > > >> in > > > > >>>>> good > > > > >>>>>> faith, and in a constructive way. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Let me know if you have further questions. > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Best wishes, > > > > >>>>>> Nicole > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> [1] > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/July_2018_-_Board_of_Trustees_participation_in_the_Movement_Strategy_Process > > > > >>>>>> [2] > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Working_Groups/Procedures > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:13, Yaroslav Blanter < > > ymb...@gmail.com> > > > > >>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> And this is the core problem of the whole process (which has > > been > > > > >>>>> pointed > > > > >>>>>>> out by multiple people from the very beginning) > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> Cheers > > > > >>>>>>> Yaroslav > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 12:27 PM Jeff Hawke < > > > > >>> geoffey.ha...@gmail.com > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Andy > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM Andy Mabbett < > > > > >>>>>> a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk> > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 09:55, Jeff Hawke < > > > > >>>> geoffey.ha...@gmail.com> > > > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>>> the WG then collate them and decide the final form of the > > > > >>>>>>>>>> recommendations, to be implemented by the WMF > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>>> This seems to be missing a rather crucial intermediate > step; > > > > >>> the > > > > >>>>> one > > > > >>>>>>>>> where the recommendations are accepted, or not, by the > wider > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia > > > > >>>>>>>>> community. > > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> That step is not mentioned at > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Frequently_asked_questions#What_steps_will_take_place_in_the_next_few_months_to_put_a_decision-making_process_in_place > > > > >>>>>>>> ? > > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > >>>>>>>> Jeff > > > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > and > > > > >>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > >>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: > > > > >>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > >>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >>>> ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > > > >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > >>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >>>>>>> Unsubscribe: > > > > >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > >>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > >>> ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> -- > > > > >>>>>> Nicole Ebber > > > > >>>>>> Adviser International Relations > > > > >>>>>> Program Manager Wikimedia 2030 Movement Strategy > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland e. V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 > > > Berlin > > > > >>>>>> Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0 > > > > >>>>>> https://wikimedia.de > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Unsere Vision ist eine Welt, in der alle Menschen am Wissen > der > > > > >>>>> Menschheit > > > > >>>>>> teilhaben, es nutzen und mehren können. Helfen Sie uns dabei! > > > > >>>>>> https://spenden.wikimedia.de > > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>>>> Wikimedia Deutschland — Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien > > Wissens > > > > >> e. > > > > >>> V. > > > > >>>>>> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts > > > > >> Berlin-Charlottenburg > > > > >>>>> unter > > > > >>>>>> der Nummer 23855 B. 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