Sure, WMF running roughshod over the community is something that doesn't happen.
I must be imagining the events that led to the community open letter on renaming, which featured nearly a thousand individual endorsers and 72 community affiliates. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_open_letter_on_renaming And do we *really* want to go into events leading to Heilman's suspension from the board or Tretikov's resignation? The Fram suspension and under whose authority the investigation was launched? Should we talk a bit about the Funds Dissemination Committee? I would wager we don't, but if someone's going to suggest to me with a straight face that we should assume the goodness and purity of the WMF, then there's all this and a *lot* more to unwind. This can't be hand-waved away; too many people "know where the bodies are buried." Cheers, Dan On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:48 AM Anders Wennersten <m...@anderswennersten.se> wrote: > I want to echo Jackies two mail > > The community for svwp is not so big and complicated issues on conduct > are uncommon. But when they occur we often get caught in argument like " > you who claim to decide over svwp CoC are just a small kabal of some > 10-120 admins, you are unrepresentative and the enwp CoC says > otherwise". It will be of big help for us when we need not go into > detailed discussion over every abuse, but can refer to the UCoC (and not > just ToU). > > And wordings... We consist of people form many different culture and > language, so what one small group can be seen as acceptable wording can > be seen as offensive to other. > > When I worked in the Swedish global company Ericsson, the interal > language was English. But in reality that internal vocabulary only used > 5-10% of the English words, and never puns or sarcasm, and often rather > blunt expressions than too "flowery". I think something similar must be > what we use in our internal communication of Wikimedia. And that will be > welcome for all non-native English people, but can be harder for native > English people. I have given feedback to top WMF people when the used > too complicated/flowery sentences that made it hard for non-natives to > understand what was said. > > Anders > > > Den 2020-09-10 kl. 16:16, skrev Jackie: > > Dan, > > > > I am so glad you have given us a real-world example as to how a Universal > > Code of Conduct would be super helpful. It would provide you with a clear > > understanding of how your comments impacted others. It wasn't just your > use > > of the word "flatulence" (which, funny enough, I had to reference > spelling > > from your email because I have *never* written this word in any > > correspondence). As a parent, I certainly understand the place of such > > words in juvenile humor, but your use here was to implicate an > organization > > of professionals is simply operating in bad faith. That sort of comment > is > > hostile and denigrates people who *actually* work very hard to empower > > people in the free knowledge movement. > > > > This language serves to alienate people from participation and sews > > discord. These mailing lists are already missing a lot of the people who > > *should* be at the table in these discussions. The mailing lists are > rather > > homogeneous in participation because of responses like this call for > > discussion. I hope the future means we move to something more inclusive > and > > covered by a Code of Conduct. > > > > In a situation like this where someone has said something offensive, a > CoC > > would provide a process for everyone to follow and understand. The people > > reporting the concern would have avenues on which to do so without facing > > public backlash and the steps for reviewing reports would be clear. Based > > off of other CoC examples, this often includes who will respond to such > > concerns and how they will respond. CoCs often go further to clearly > > identify which steps will be taken for certain offenses and what response > > and support the original person reporting the issue can receive. I feel > > education is a huge part of CoC violation response. Perhaps the person > > violating the CoC can do better after becoming aware of how their > behavior > > impacts others and still be a valuable member of the community. > > > > If you are still genuinely confused about how what you said is > offensive, I > > am more than happy to discuss this with you via phone or video chat. I > find > > that text-based communication provides complications for discussions > about > > emotional topics. I can see you feel passionate about this situation and > > upset about the result. > > > > Best, > > > > Jackie > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 7:23 AM Joseph Seddon <josephsed...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> Wikipedia has been a third tier social media platform since its > inception. > >> Luckily we are better known for being an encyclopedia. > >> > >> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:31 AM Dan Szymborski <dszymbor...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> I am absolutely flabbergasted that a generic reference of an > organization > >>> to flatulence, something we see in rated-G television isn't considered > >>> "collegial" enough yet the actions that the WMF has taken over the last > >> 18 > >>> months, many of which were pushed by people on this list *are* > considered > >>> collegial. > >>> > >>> If a joke that would be appropriate for a four-year-old leads to > special > >>> moderation, what action ought be taken for someone on the list pushing > >> the > >>> failure of a collaborative process that WMF is foisting upon the > >> community? > >>> One of the people "doth protesting too much" about the reference is > also > >>> someone banned from English Wikipedia for a whole litany of *actual* > >> things > >>> that took up countless hours of community time, including making legal > >>> threats based on finding offense in normal Wikipedia actions. > >>> > >>> I am a longtime, accredited journalist, possibly even slightly > respected > >> in > >>> the field -- though there's always that risk of Dunning-Kruger -- who > has > >>> written for a ton of outlets and there's not an editor in the world > that > >>> I've worked with who would've asked me to change the *very* gentle > >> wording. > >>> If anything, I was too mild. *I'm* grossly offended by the WMF's > actions > >>> over the last 18 months. *I'm* grossly offended by the perversion of a > >> free > >>> information movement being converted into a third-tier social media > app. > >>> *I'm* grossly offended by board policies that empower the vested, the > >>> connected, the politically adept to judge the weak and the voiceless. > >> *I'm* > >>> grossly offended by the people here who cheerfully announce the board > >>> arbitrarily changing board terms or that the community has no actual > say > >> in > >>> what the *community* (not the board) built. The Wiki movement is far > >> bigger > >>> than the WMF; which is a good thing because I can't imagine it being > >>> smaller than the board's self-dealing petty bourgeoisie affair. > >>> > >>> No, I didn't mean petit. > >>> > >>> Yet I don't call for anyone to be silenced because, well, disagreeing > >>> vigorously is what adults are able to do. > >>> > >>> It matters not if this message is censored by the list overlords. One > of > >>> the few benefits of being a journalist is that combination of > >>> self-righteousness and having myriad ways to prevent an opinion from > >> being > >>> suppressed on dubious grounds. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> > >>> Dan > >>> > >>> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 2:55 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < > >>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> A code of conduct id something many of us have asked the WMF to write > >> for > >>>> many years. We are asking the WMF to take an active part in stopping > >>>> abusive behaviors in our community. > >>>> > >>>> On fr wiki, many admins say they are tired of conflicts and that they > >> did > >>>> not enroll to deal with them. A code of conduct could help then take > >>> action > >>>> because it offers a frame. > >>>> > >>>> This is COMPLETELY different with the branding process. > >>>> > >>>> We are one of the few projects in the open source world without a code > >> of > >>>> conduct. > >>>> > >>>> So thank you for this draft, thank you for opening up for discussions, > >>> and > >>>> I hope the language will remain respectful. > >>>> > >>>> I believe moderators should ban from this list the person who spoke > >> about > >>>> « wmf flatulence ». > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I dont want to read that type of language among people who are > >>> supposedly > >>>> asked to write neutral enccyclopedias. > >>>> > >>>> It puts pressure and stress on those who would like to answer on this > >>>> thread, it sets an aggressive climate. > >>>> > >>>> Please could we all feel empowered to apply our founding principles > >> and > >>>> refuse any such language here and on meta in these discussions? > >>>> > >>>> Kind regards, > >>>> > >>>> Nattes à chat > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Envoyé de mon iPhone > >>>> > >>>>> Le 10 sept. 2020 à 03:53, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> a écrit : > >>>>> > >>>>> Yair > >>>>> > >>>>> I was in the room in 2017 when the first community consultation on > >> the > >>>>> strategy program took place. Affiliates were asked to send a person > >>>>> specifically for the strategy process, and WMF also invited some > >> other > >>>>> community members. There was absolutely no coercion, or control over > >>> what > >>>>> topics were raised during those discussions. The program was not run > >> by > >>>> the > >>>>> WMF and everyone was free to contribute any ideas they had, as the > >>>> program > >>>>> went on we chose which areas and topics we wanted to be the focus. > >>> Trust > >>>>> and safety, and user conduct were areas that were identified as > >>> necessary > >>>>> to the future development of the movement. This process has been open > >>> for > >>>>> ideas, comments, and suggestions. Yes the WMF has funded the process > >>> but > >>>>> every choice has been made by community members without any duress or > >>>>> reward as to where each step lead. > >>>>> > >>>>> As someone who actively runs projects for the last 10 years to bring > >> in > >>>> new > >>>>> contributors, I have concerns about the UCoC process in giving > >>> advantages > >>>>> to those who have been around longer but that is not something that > >>> will > >>>> be > >>>>> unique to this as its already an issue in all projects where the new > >>>> person > >>>>> is the one frequently dismissed as wrong when there is a clash > >> between > >>>>> them and someone who has been around long enough to be known. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 09:11, Yair Rand <yyairr...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>>> The UCoC is obviously a WMF-driven project. It was announced in June > >>>> 2019 > >>>>>> by a member of the WMF Trust and Safety team, was added to the > >>> strategy > >>>>>> process by the group of WMF appointees (or sometimes WMF > >>>>>> appointee-appointees) who made up the working group, had > >>>>>> pseudo-consultations about it started by WMF staff (with > >>>> wildly-misleading > >>>>>> reports written up afterward, again by the WMF), and the UCoC itself > >>> was > >>>>>> drafted by a mixed group of WMF staff and WMF appointees, through a > >>>> process > >>>>>> set by the WMF. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The communities have repeatedly expressed unambiguous consensus > >>> against > >>>>>> having a WMF-imposed UCoC. The WMF has absolutely no business in > >>> setting > >>>>>> ordinary conduct policy, and they could have the ED and every board > >>>> member > >>>>>> and C-level declare the UCoC to be policy, and threaten every > >>> affiliate > >>>>>> into declaring it as policy, and the only impact would be > >>> demonstrating > >>>> how > >>>>>> far removed they are from Wikimedia. The communities are > >>> self-governing > >>>> and > >>>>>> will implement policy based on community decisions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> That said, I disagree with Dan's calls for > >>>> nonparticipation/noncooperation > >>>>>> or for specifically withholding funds or support. If we end up in a > >>>>>> situation where the WMF tries to block, desysop, threaten, or sue > >>>>>> contributors, or to seize control over the projects, that would be > >> the > >>>> time > >>>>>> for all editors and affiliates and donors to level-headedly level > >> the > >>>>>> Foundation to its foundations. Until then, we should attempt to work > >>>> with > >>>>>> them, even when their behaviour leaves much to be desired. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- Yair Rand > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> בתאריך יום ד׳, 9 בספט׳ 2020 ב-16:03 מאת Jackie < > >>>>>> jackie.koer...@gmail.com>: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Dan, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I hear that you are upset by the suggestion and likely > >> implementation > >>>> of > >>>>>> a > >>>>>>> Universal Code of Conduct. I also hear that you feel like this is a > >>>>>>> WMF-driven project. I cannot change your opinion about the UCoC, > >> but > >>> I > >>>>>> can > >>>>>>> say your feelings about this being a WMF-driven project are untrue. > >>> It > >>>>>>> doesn't matter how strongly you feel this, it's actually many > >> groups > >>> of > >>>>>>> people working together. It was determined as a major need during > >>>>>>> discussions I had as part of the Community Health Working Group > >> and I > >>>> am > >>>>>>> glad to see this moving forward. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I am glad you feel comfortable expressing yourself and your > >> feelings > >>>>>> about > >>>>>>> the UCoC. I also would like to say the way in which people express > >>>>>>> themselves and mask insults as "lively discussion" is a huge reason > >>> why > >>>>>> we > >>>>>>> need a UCoC. To that point, I agree with Isaac and would suggest > >> you > >>>>>> share > >>>>>>> in a (collegiate) conversation on the Meta talk page. I just cannot > >>>> take > >>>>>>> you seriously with the language you used in your email. I, however, > >>>> would > >>>>>>> love to take your comments seriously and have you engage in a > >>>> good-faith > >>>>>>> discussion about the UCoC. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Our roles in the discussion should consider not only our needs as > >>>>>>> individuals but the needs of the broader communities. To dismiss > >> the > >>>> UCoC > >>>>>>> is failing to recognize privilege and power structures and their > >>> effect > >>>>>> on > >>>>>>> people in and outside of the Wikimedia community. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jackie > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:42 PM Isaac Olatunde < > >>>> reachout2is...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hello Dan, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> You are allowed to offer an opinion but I Honestly think that's > >>> better > >>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> more useful on the Draft talk page. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> That being said, by "effective vote or representation in the > >>>>>>> proceedings", > >>>>>>>> you probably expected a different model where different language > >>>>>>>> Wikip(m)edia community would be represented or vote on weather to > >>> have > >>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> UCoC. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The current model isn't bad. I do think we should review the > >> draft > >>>> and > >>>>>>> if > >>>>>>>> there are specific wording we disagree with, we can either suggest > >>>>>>>> improvement or removal altogether. I honestly think we need to > >> help > >>>> and > >>>>>>>> support the drafting committee at this stage. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Isaac > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 19:25 Dan Szymborski, <dszymbor...@gmail.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> I'm also perfectly free to express to the IRS that I'd really > >> like > >>> to > >>>>>>>> get a > >>>>>>>>> $10 million check from them at tax time. The ability to offer an > >>>>>>> opinion > >>>>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>> proceedings with no effective vote or representation in the > >>>>>> proceedings > >>>>>>>> is > >>>>>>>>> about as good as a fart in the wind. I'd prefer the WMF keep its > >>>>>>>> flatulence > >>>>>>>>> to itself. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:17 PM Isaac Olatunde < > >>>>>>> reachout2is...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the > >> Board > >>>>>> or > >>>>>>>> WMF > >>>>>>>>>> as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest > >>> improvement. > >>>>>>>>>> I have been following the process closely and I do not see > >>> anything > >>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>> looks like an "imposition" > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the > >> existing > >>>>>>>> policy > >>>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>> guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in any > >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia > >>>>>>>>>> project. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Isaac > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski, < > >> dszymbor...@gmail.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above > >>>>>> without > >>>>>>>>>>> community approval, participating in any way is ethically > >>>>>> unsound. > >>>>>>>>> Doubly > >>>>>>>>>>> so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has > >>>>>>> arbitrarily > >>>>>>>>>>> denied communities the right, as manifested in the election of > >>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>> community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF > >> has > >>>>>>>> taken > >>>>>>>>>> over > >>>>>>>>>>> the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a collaborative > >>>>>>>> process > >>>>>>>>>> when > >>>>>>>>>>> it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's > >> called > >>>>>>> one. > >>>>>>>>>>> The best use of time at this point is to organize the > >> communities > >>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> use > >>>>>>>>>>> every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley < > >>>>>>> pear...@wikimedia.org > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, everyone. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of > >>>>>> Conduct > >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct>, > >>>>>>> which > >>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier this > >>>>>>> year > >>>>>>>>>>>> < > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces > >>>>>>>>>>>>> , > >>>>>>>>>>>> for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open > >> until > >>>>>>>>> October > >>>>>>>>>>> 6, > >>>>>>>>>>>> 2020. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> The UCoC Drafting Committee > >>>>>>>>>>>> < > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wants > >>>>>>>>>>>> to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges for > >>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>> or > >>>>>>>>>>> your > >>>>>>>>>>>> work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and > >>>>>> what > >>>>>>>>> could > >>>>>>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>> improved? > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped with > >>>>>>>>>>> translations > >>>>>>>>>>>> so far. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Please join the conversation > >>>>>>>>>>>> < > >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review > >>>>>>>>>>>> and share this email with others who may be interested to > >> join, > >>>>>>>> too. > >>>>>>>>>>>> To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code > >> of > >>>>>>>>> Conduct > >>>>>>>>>>>> page > >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct>, > >>>>>> and > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> FAQ > >>>>>>>>>>>> < > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ > >>>>>>> , > >>>>>>>> on > >>>>>>>>>>> Meta. > >>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> [2] > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces > >>>>>>>>>>>> [3] > >>>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review > >>>>>>>>>>>> [4] > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ > >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick Earley > >>>>>>>>>>>> Policy Manager, Trust and Safety > >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation > >>>>>>>>>>>> pear...@wikimedia.org > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>>>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > 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<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > >>> ?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Jackie Koerner, Ph.D. > >>>>>>> jackiekoerner.com > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > >> ?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>>> Unsubscribe: > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l > >>> , > >>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > >> ?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> GN. > >>>>> > >>>>> *Power of Diverse Collaboration* > >>>>> *Sharing knowledge brings people together* > >>>>> Wikimania Bangkok 2021 > >>>>> August > >>>>> hosted by ESEAP > >>>>> > >>>>> Wikimania: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gnangarra > >>>>> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > >>>>> My print shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/Gnangarra/shop?asc=u > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > >>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > >>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > >>>>> Unsubscribe: > >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > >>>> > >>>> 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