Mr. Szymborski, I understand you have very little faith in the Wikimedia Foundation, and are upset about some past decisions and statements it has made. As I already wrote above, you are welcome to express that criticism so long as you manage to remain civil, which includes avoiding vulgarity.
But I also must insist that you not hijack this thread, which is for discussing the draft UCoC. If you see value in bringing up your concerns on those other matters on this list, please do so on separate threads. Since you have expressed the opinion that this UCoC draft is illegitimate, I suggest there is really no reason for you to post further on this thread, leaving it for those who *would* like to discuss it. As you have seen, we have not yet prevented any of your messages from reaching the list, but we will, if you refuse to respect this express expectation. A. On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dan Szymborski <dszymbor...@gmail.com> wrote: > Sure, WMF running roughshod over the community is something that doesn't > happen. > > I must be imagining the events that led to the community open letter on > renaming, which featured nearly a thousand individual endorsers and 72 > community affiliates. > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_open_letter_on_renaming > > And do we *really* want to go into events leading to Heilman's suspension > from the board or Tretikov's resignation? The Fram suspension and under > whose authority the investigation was launched? Should we talk a bit about > the Funds Dissemination Committee? > > I would wager we don't, but if someone's going to suggest to me with a > straight face that we should assume the goodness and purity of the WMF, > then there's all this and a *lot* more to unwind. This can't be hand-waved > away; too many people "know where the bodies are buried." > > Cheers, > > Dan > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:48 AM Anders Wennersten < > m...@anderswennersten.se> > wrote: > > > I want to echo Jackies two mail > > > > The community for svwp is not so big and complicated issues on conduct > > are uncommon. But when they occur we often get caught in argument like " > > you who claim to decide over svwp CoC are just a small kabal of some > > 10-120 admins, you are unrepresentative and the enwp CoC says > > otherwise". It will be of big help for us when we need not go into > > detailed discussion over every abuse, but can refer to the UCoC (and not > > just ToU). > > > > And wordings... We consist of people form many different culture and > > language, so what one small group can be seen as acceptable wording can > > be seen as offensive to other. > > > > When I worked in the Swedish global company Ericsson, the interal > > language was English. But in reality that internal vocabulary only used > > 5-10% of the English words, and never puns or sarcasm, and often rather > > blunt expressions than too "flowery". I think something similar must be > > what we use in our internal communication of Wikimedia. And that will be > > welcome for all non-native English people, but can be harder for native > > English people. I have given feedback to top WMF people when the used > > too complicated/flowery sentences that made it hard for non-natives to > > understand what was said. > > > > Anders > > > > > > Den 2020-09-10 kl. 16:16, skrev Jackie: > > > Dan, > > > > > > I am so glad you have given us a real-world example as to how a > Universal > > > Code of Conduct would be super helpful. It would provide you with a > clear > > > understanding of how your comments impacted others. It wasn't just your > > use > > > of the word "flatulence" (which, funny enough, I had to reference > > spelling > > > from your email because I have *never* written this word in any > > > correspondence). As a parent, I certainly understand the place of such > > > words in juvenile humor, but your use here was to implicate an > > organization > > > of professionals is simply operating in bad faith. That sort of comment > > is > > > hostile and denigrates people who *actually* work very hard to empower > > > people in the free knowledge movement. > > > > > > This language serves to alienate people from participation and sews > > > discord. These mailing lists are already missing a lot of the people > who > > > *should* be at the table in these discussions. The mailing lists are > > rather > > > homogeneous in participation because of responses like this call for > > > discussion. I hope the future means we move to something more inclusive > > and > > > covered by a Code of Conduct. > > > > > > In a situation like this where someone has said something offensive, a > > CoC > > > would provide a process for everyone to follow and understand. The > people > > > reporting the concern would have avenues on which to do so without > facing > > > public backlash and the steps for reviewing reports would be clear. > Based > > > off of other CoC examples, this often includes who will respond to such > > > concerns and how they will respond. CoCs often go further to clearly > > > identify which steps will be taken for certain offenses and what > response > > > and support the original person reporting the issue can receive. I feel > > > education is a huge part of CoC violation response. Perhaps the person > > > violating the CoC can do better after becoming aware of how their > > behavior > > > impacts others and still be a valuable member of the community. > > > > > > If you are still genuinely confused about how what you said is > > offensive, I > > > am more than happy to discuss this with you via phone or video chat. I > > find > > > that text-based communication provides complications for discussions > > about > > > emotional topics. I can see you feel passionate about this situation > and > > > upset about the result. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Jackie > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 7:23 AM Joseph Seddon <josephsed...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Wikipedia has been a third tier social media platform since its > > inception. > > >> Luckily we are better known for being an encyclopedia. > > >> > > >> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 10:31 AM Dan Szymborski < > dszymbor...@gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> I am absolutely flabbergasted that a generic reference of an > > organization > > >>> to flatulence, something we see in rated-G television isn't > considered > > >>> "collegial" enough yet the actions that the WMF has taken over the > last > > >> 18 > > >>> months, many of which were pushed by people on this list *are* > > considered > > >>> collegial. > > >>> > > >>> If a joke that would be appropriate for a four-year-old leads to > > special > > >>> moderation, what action ought be taken for someone on the list > pushing > > >> the > > >>> failure of a collaborative process that WMF is foisting upon the > > >> community? > > >>> One of the people "doth protesting too much" about the reference is > > also > > >>> someone banned from English Wikipedia for a whole litany of *actual* > > >> things > > >>> that took up countless hours of community time, including making > legal > > >>> threats based on finding offense in normal Wikipedia actions. > > >>> > > >>> I am a longtime, accredited journalist, possibly even slightly > > respected > > >> in > > >>> the field -- though there's always that risk of Dunning-Kruger -- who > > has > > >>> written for a ton of outlets and there's not an editor in the world > > that > > >>> I've worked with who would've asked me to change the *very* gentle > > >> wording. > > >>> If anything, I was too mild. *I'm* grossly offended by the WMF's > > actions > > >>> over the last 18 months. *I'm* grossly offended by the perversion of > a > > >> free > > >>> information movement being converted into a third-tier social media > > app. > > >>> *I'm* grossly offended by board policies that empower the vested, the > > >>> connected, the politically adept to judge the weak and the voiceless. > > >> *I'm* > > >>> grossly offended by the people here who cheerfully announce the board > > >>> arbitrarily changing board terms or that the community has no actual > > say > > >> in > > >>> what the *community* (not the board) built. The Wiki movement is far > > >> bigger > > >>> than the WMF; which is a good thing because I can't imagine it being > > >>> smaller than the board's self-dealing petty bourgeoisie affair. > > >>> > > >>> No, I didn't mean petit. > > >>> > > >>> Yet I don't call for anyone to be silenced because, well, disagreeing > > >>> vigorously is what adults are able to do. > > >>> > > >>> It matters not if this message is censored by the list overlords. One > > of > > >>> the few benefits of being a journalist is that combination of > > >>> self-righteousness and having myriad ways to prevent an opinion from > > >> being > > >>> suppressed on dubious grounds. > > >>> > > >>> Cheers, > > >>> > > >>> Dan > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 2:55 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l < > > >>> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> Hello, > > >>>> > > >>>> A code of conduct id something many of us have asked the WMF to > write > > >> for > > >>>> many years. We are asking the WMF to take an active part in stopping > > >>>> abusive behaviors in our community. > > >>>> > > >>>> On fr wiki, many admins say they are tired of conflicts and that > they > > >> did > > >>>> not enroll to deal with them. A code of conduct could help then take > > >>> action > > >>>> because it offers a frame. > > >>>> > > >>>> This is COMPLETELY different with the branding process. > > >>>> > > >>>> We are one of the few projects in the open source world without a > code > > >> of > > >>>> conduct. > > >>>> > > >>>> So thank you for this draft, thank you for opening up for > discussions, > > >>> and > > >>>> I hope the language will remain respectful. > > >>>> > > >>>> I believe moderators should ban from this list the person who spoke > > >> about > > >>>> « wmf flatulence ». > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> I dont want to read that type of language among people who are > > >>> supposedly > > >>>> asked to write neutral enccyclopedias. > > >>>> > > >>>> It puts pressure and stress on those who would like to answer on > this > > >>>> thread, it sets an aggressive climate. > > >>>> > > >>>> Please could we all feel empowered to apply our founding principles > > >> and > > >>>> refuse any such language here and on meta in these discussions? > > >>>> > > >>>> Kind regards, > > >>>> > > >>>> Nattes à chat > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Envoyé de mon iPhone > > >>>> > > >>>>> Le 10 sept. 2020 à 03:53, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> a écrit > : > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Yair > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I was in the room in 2017 when the first community consultation on > > >> the > > >>>>> strategy program took place. Affiliates were asked to send a person > > >>>>> specifically for the strategy process, and WMF also invited some > > >> other > > >>>>> community members. There was absolutely no coercion, or control > over > > >>> what > > >>>>> topics were raised during those discussions. The program was not > run > > >> by > > >>>> the > > >>>>> WMF and everyone was free to contribute any ideas they had, as the > > >>>> program > > >>>>> went on we chose which areas and topics we wanted to be the focus. > > >>> Trust > > >>>>> and safety, and user conduct were areas that were identified as > > >>> necessary > > >>>>> to the future development of the movement. This process has been > open > > >>> for > > >>>>> ideas, comments, and suggestions. Yes the WMF has funded the > process > > >>> but > > >>>>> every choice has been made by community members without any duress > or > > >>>>> reward as to where each step lead. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> As someone who actively runs projects for the last 10 years to > bring > > >> in > > >>>> new > > >>>>> contributors, I have concerns about the UCoC process in giving > > >>> advantages > > >>>>> to those who have been around longer but that is not something that > > >>> will > > >>>> be > > >>>>> unique to this as its already an issue in all projects where the > new > > >>>> person > > >>>>> is the one frequently dismissed as wrong when there is a clash > > >> between > > >>>>> them and someone who has been around long enough to be known. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> On Thu, 10 Sep 2020 at 09:11, Yair Rand <yyairr...@gmail.com> > > >> wrote: > > >>>>>> The UCoC is obviously a WMF-driven project. It was announced in > June > > >>>> 2019 > > >>>>>> by a member of the WMF Trust and Safety team, was added to the > > >>> strategy > > >>>>>> process by the group of WMF appointees (or sometimes WMF > > >>>>>> appointee-appointees) who made up the working group, had > > >>>>>> pseudo-consultations about it started by WMF staff (with > > >>>> wildly-misleading > > >>>>>> reports written up afterward, again by the WMF), and the UCoC > itself > > >>> was > > >>>>>> drafted by a mixed group of WMF staff and WMF appointees, through > a > > >>>> process > > >>>>>> set by the WMF. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The communities have repeatedly expressed unambiguous consensus > > >>> against > > >>>>>> having a WMF-imposed UCoC. The WMF has absolutely no business in > > >>> setting > > >>>>>> ordinary conduct policy, and they could have the ED and every > board > > >>>> member > > >>>>>> and C-level declare the UCoC to be policy, and threaten every > > >>> affiliate > > >>>>>> into declaring it as policy, and the only impact would be > > >>> demonstrating > > >>>> how > > >>>>>> far removed they are from Wikimedia. The communities are > > >>> self-governing > > >>>> and > > >>>>>> will implement policy based on community decisions. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> That said, I disagree with Dan's calls for > > >>>> nonparticipation/noncooperation > > >>>>>> or for specifically withholding funds or support. If we end up in > a > > >>>>>> situation where the WMF tries to block, desysop, threaten, or sue > > >>>>>> contributors, or to seize control over the projects, that would be > > >> the > > >>>> time > > >>>>>> for all editors and affiliates and donors to level-headedly level > > >> the > > >>>>>> Foundation to its foundations. Until then, we should attempt to > work > > >>>> with > > >>>>>> them, even when their behaviour leaves much to be desired. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -- Yair Rand > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> בתאריך יום ד׳, 9 בספט׳ 2020 ב-16:03 מאת Jackie < > > >>>>>> jackie.koer...@gmail.com>: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Hi Dan, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I hear that you are upset by the suggestion and likely > > >> implementation > > >>>> of > > >>>>>> a > > >>>>>>> Universal Code of Conduct. I also hear that you feel like this > is a > > >>>>>>> WMF-driven project. I cannot change your opinion about the UCoC, > > >> but > > >>> I > > >>>>>> can > > >>>>>>> say your feelings about this being a WMF-driven project are > untrue. > > >>> It > > >>>>>>> doesn't matter how strongly you feel this, it's actually many > > >> groups > > >>> of > > >>>>>>> people working together. It was determined as a major need during > > >>>>>>> discussions I had as part of the Community Health Working Group > > >> and I > > >>>> am > > >>>>>>> glad to see this moving forward. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I am glad you feel comfortable expressing yourself and your > > >> feelings > > >>>>>> about > > >>>>>>> the UCoC. I also would like to say the way in which people > express > > >>>>>>> themselves and mask insults as "lively discussion" is a huge > reason > > >>> why > > >>>>>> we > > >>>>>>> need a UCoC. To that point, I agree with Isaac and would suggest > > >> you > > >>>>>> share > > >>>>>>> in a (collegiate) conversation on the Meta talk page. I just > cannot > > >>>> take > > >>>>>>> you seriously with the language you used in your email. I, > however, > > >>>> would > > >>>>>>> love to take your comments seriously and have you engage in a > > >>>> good-faith > > >>>>>>> discussion about the UCoC. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Our roles in the discussion should consider not only our needs as > > >>>>>>> individuals but the needs of the broader communities. To dismiss > > >> the > > >>>> UCoC > > >>>>>>> is failing to recognize privilege and power structures and their > > >>> effect > > >>>>>> on > > >>>>>>> people in and outside of the Wikimedia community. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Best, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Jackie > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:42 PM Isaac Olatunde < > > >>>> reachout2is...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Hello Dan, > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> You are allowed to offer an opinion but I Honestly think that's > > >>> better > > >>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>> more useful on the Draft talk page. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> That being said, by "effective vote or representation in the > > >>>>>>> proceedings", > > >>>>>>>> you probably expected a different model where different language > > >>>>>>>> Wikip(m)edia community would be represented or vote on weather > to > > >>> have > > >>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>> UCoC. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> The current model isn't bad. I do think we should review the > > >> draft > > >>>> and > > >>>>>>> if > > >>>>>>>> there are specific wording we disagree with, we can either > suggest > > >>>>>>>> improvement or removal altogether. I honestly think we need to > > >> help > > >>>> and > > >>>>>>>> support the drafting committee at this stage. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Regards > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Isaac > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 19:25 Dan Szymborski, < > dszymbor...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> I'm also perfectly free to express to the IRS that I'd really > > >> like > > >>> to > > >>>>>>>> get a > > >>>>>>>>> $10 million check from them at tax time. The ability to offer > an > > >>>>>>> opinion > > >>>>>>>> on > > >>>>>>>>> proceedings with no effective vote or representation in the > > >>>>>> proceedings > > >>>>>>>> is > > >>>>>>>>> about as good as a fart in the wind. I'd prefer the WMF keep > its > > >>>>>>>> flatulence > > >>>>>>>>> to itself. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:17 PM Isaac Olatunde < > > >>>>>>> reachout2is...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On the contrary, I do not think this is an imposition by the > > >> Board > > >>>>>> or > > >>>>>>>> WMF > > >>>>>>>>>> as we are allowed to comment on the draft, and suggest > > >>> improvement. > > >>>>>>>>>> I have been following the process closely and I do not see > > >>> anything > > >>>>>>>> that > > >>>>>>>>>> looks like an "imposition" > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> The Universal Code of Conduct is not a substitute to the > > >> existing > > >>>>>>>> policy > > >>>>>>>>> or > > >>>>>>>>>> guidelines but a behavioural guidelines expected of users in > any > > >>>>>>>>> Wikimedia > > >>>>>>>>>> project. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Regards > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Isaac > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Sep 2020, 16:11 Dan Szymborski, < > > >> dszymbor...@gmail.com> > > >>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> As this is being explicitly imposed by the board from above > > >>>>>> without > > >>>>>>>>>>> community approval, participating in any way is ethically > > >>>>>> unsound. > > >>>>>>>>> Doubly > > >>>>>>>>>>> so without a board election preceding this as the WMF has > > >>>>>>> arbitrarily > > >>>>>>>>>>> denied communities the right, as manifested in the election > of > > >>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>> community seats, to voice their opinions of actions that WMF > > >> has > > >>>>>>>> taken > > >>>>>>>>>> over > > >>>>>>>>>>> the last 18 months. A collaborative process is a > collaborative > > >>>>>>>> process > > >>>>>>>>>> when > > >>>>>>>>>>> it's actually a collaborative process, not just when it's > > >> called > > >>>>>>> one. > > >>>>>>>>>>> The best use of time at this point is to organize the > > >> communities > > >>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>> use > > >>>>>>>>>>> every means at its disposal to resist such an imposition. > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 4:18 PM Patrick Earley < > > >>>>>>> pear...@wikimedia.org > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, everyone. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> We are excited to share a draft of the Universal Code of > > >>>>>> Conduct > > >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct > >, > > >>>>>>> which > > >>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees called for earlier > this > > >>>>>>> year > > >>>>>>>>>>>> < > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> , > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for your review and feedback. The discussion will be open > > >> until > > >>>>>>>>> October > > >>>>>>>>>>> 6, > > >>>>>>>>>>>> 2020. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The UCoC Drafting Committee > > >>>>>>>>>>>> < > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Drafting_committee > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wants > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to learn which parts of the draft would present challenges > for > > >>>>>>> you > > >>>>>>>> or > > >>>>>>>>>>> your > > >>>>>>>>>>>> work. What is missing from this draft? What do you like, and > > >>>>>> what > > >>>>>>>>> could > > >>>>>>>>>>> be > > >>>>>>>>>>>> improved? > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Many thanks to the Committee, and everyone who has helped > with > > >>>>>>>>>>> translations > > >>>>>>>>>>>> so far. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Please join the conversation > > >>>>>>>>>>>> < > > >>> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and share this email with others who may be interested to > > >> join, > > >>>>>>>> too. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> To learn more about the UCoC project, see the Universal Code > > >> of > > >>>>>>>>> Conduct > > >>>>>>>>>>>> page > > >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct > >, > > >>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>> FAQ > > >>>>>>>>>>>> < > > >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ > > >>>>>>> , > > >>>>>>>> on > > >>>>>>>>>>> Meta. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> [1] > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> [2] > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/May_2020_-_Board_of_Trustees_on_Healthy_Community_Culture,_Inclusivity,_and_Safe_Spaces > > >>>>>>>>>>>> [3] > > >>>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Draft_review > > >>>>>>>>>>>> [4] > > >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Universal_Code_of_Conduct/FAQ > > >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Patrick Earley > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Policy Manager, Trust and Safety > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation > > >>>>>>>>>>>> pear...@wikimedia.org > > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > and > > >>>>>>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > >>>>>>>>>>>> New messages to: 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