Also, define and prove "serious economic consequences". The argument of some users is that if it wasn't online for free illegally they wouldn't obtain at any cost. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
"When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however improbable, must be the truth." --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Curtis Maurand <cmaur...@xyonet.com>wrote: > Again, point 5. > > - "open Internet principles apply only to lawful content, services and > > applications -- not to activities like unlawful distribution of > copyrighted > > works, which has serious economic consequences." > > Of course, how do you know that bittorrent user isn't distributing GNU > licensed material rather than superhotxxxmovie (c)2009 by > superhotxxxmoviecompany.com? There's the rub. > > --C > > > > > Clint Ricker wrote: > > The language of point 3 is targetting heavy "users", not "applications" > that > > may be heavy under some, even common, circumstances. While it seems like > a > > small detail, it is, in fact, a big distinction--why should I be blocked > > from using bit torrent to download a gutenberg ebook (ie legal & small) > > because my neighbor is doing warez full throttle, 24/7/365? > > > > Genachowski specifically alluded to Comcast degrading bit torrent > traffic, > > something that Comcast claimed to be doing for reasons of network > management > > and blocking of illegal content. > > > > Waving the illegal content flag is, in my opinion, very short sighted: > > - Legal video streaming services (hulu, netflix on demand) are rising. > > These are worse, in a lot of ways, than the bit torrent model since it > > requires a sustained throughput to provide a usable customer experience. > > They also often use HTTP or other common protocols. > > - Bit Torrent itself is trending more "legal"; major content providers > and > > software companies are using it for legal distribution of content while > the > > illegal content is making its way to other networks that are more secure > / > > private > > - Last, but certainly not least, content providers are VERY eager to sign > up > > the ISPs as "content" cops. Once you start down that road, you may very > > well find yourself as an operator having given away your own safe harbor > > rights and having the legal obligation to police your network for bad > > content. In general, it's hard to not see the WISPs taking the side of > > major MSOs, RBOCs, and content providers as a dangerous game. It's one > > thing to decide to block bit torrent because it carries a large > percentage > > of illegal content. It's another thing when you have to implement, at > your > > own expense, url / ip filtering, install deep packet inspection hardware > > (VERY expensive), and other extensive, expensive, and very time consuming > > process or face repeated and ongoing liability every time some kid on > your > > network wants to duck out on paying 99c for an mp3. > > > > The content providers have been pushing for this for years; if ISPs start > > dancing the same tune to win the "right" to do some occasional fiddling > with > > some packets, it would likely shift the balance of power. Given that > many > > of the major service providers (Comcast, Time Warner, etc...) are also > major > > content providers meaning that the expenses of manditory content > filtering > > carried by the service provider business are offset by potential > increases > > in profitability for the content producing side of the house. You, on > the > > other hand, have nothing to gain here. > > > > You thought CALEA was bad? > > > > -Clint Ricker > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Curtis Maurand <cmaur...@xyonet.com> > wrote: > > > > > >> Take a look at the third and the fifth bullet points. > >> > >> --C > >> > >> Clint Ricker wrote: > >> > >>> Where is everyone getting that you are allowed to prioritize anything? > >>> > >> The > >> > >>> speech details three points along the subject of prioritization. The > >>> > >> Julius > >> > >>> Genachowski's recent speech specifically said "no > prioritization"--refer > >>> > >> to > >> > >>> section 5. > >>> > >>> - "This means they cannot block or degrade lawful traffic over their > >>> networks" (blocking / deprioritizing) > >>> - "or pick winners by favoring some content or applications over others > >>> > >> in > >> > >>> the connection to subscribers' homes" (prioritizing) > >>> - "During periods of network congestion, for example, it may be > >>> > >> appropriate > >> > >>> for providers to ensure that very heavy users do not crowd out everyone > >>> else" (block / degrade on a per-user basis, rather than > per-application?) > >>> - Doesn't apply to managed services (I believe that he's referring to > >>> > >> metro > >> > >>> Ethernet with QOS) > >>> - "open Internet principles apply only to lawful content, services and > >>> applications -- not to activities like unlawful distribution of > >>> > >> copyrighted > >> > >>> works, which has serious economic consequences." (As I said in my > Senate > >>> confirmation hearing, open Internet principles apply only to lawful > >>> > >> content, > >> > >>> services and applications -- not to activities like unlawful > distribution > >>> > >> of > >> > >>> copyrighted works, which has serious economic consequences.) > >>> > >>> Where has any statement been made regarding prioritization being ok? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> -Clint Ricker > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Mike Hammett < > wispawirel...@ics-il.net > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Right, which is why I phrased it that way. You can't deprioritize > >>>> anything, > >>>> but you can prioritize anything (based upon what I've read on this > >>>> > >> list). > >> > >>>> They accomplish the same thing, but at face value, one is permissible > >>>> > >> the > >> > >>>> other is not. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ----- > >>>> Mike Hammett > >>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions > >>>> http://www.ics-il.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>> From: "Jeff Broadwick" <jeffl...@comcast.net> > >>>> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:53 PM > >>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> > >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Net Neutrality speech we've all been waiting > >>>> > >> for > >> > >>>> > >>>>> You'd have to ask the FCC. Seems like it's the opposite side of the > >>>>> > >> same > >> > >>>>> coin. > >>>>> > >>>>> Jeff > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > >>>>> > >> On > >> > >>>>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett > >>>>> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:51 PM > >>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Net Neutrality speech we've all been waiting > >>>>> > >> for > >> > >>>>> What's the difference between prioritizing all traditional services > >>>>> > >> above > >> > >>>>> other and deprioritizing the "bad" ones below other? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- > >>>>> Mike Hammett > >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions > >>>>> http://www.ics-il.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> From: "Jeff Broadwick" <jeffl...@comcast.net> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:07 PM > >>>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Net Neutrality speech we've all been waiting > >>>>> > >> for > >> > >>>>> > >>>>>> The FCC has said that you cannot de-prioritize any type of traffic. > >>>>>> > >> You > >> > >>>>>> have to do it by prioritizing other types of traffic. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jeff > >>>>>> ImageStream > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org > ] > >>>>>> > >> On > >> > >>>>>> Behalf Of Jerry Richardson > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:53 PM > >>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] The Net Neutrality speech we've all been > waiting > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> for > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>> I read the Fifth as I cannot discriminate - meaning block this but > not > >>>>>> that. > >>>>>> It says nothing about shaping. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jerry > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org > ] > >>>>>> > >> On > >> > >>>>>> Behalf Of David E. Smith > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 9:33 AM > >>>>>> To: WISPA General List > >>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] The Net Neutrality speech we've all been waiting > for > >>>>>> > >>>>>> http://openinternet.gov/read-speech.html > >>>>>> > >>>>>> In addition to the four classic "Network neutrality" principles, the > >>>>>> > >> FCC > >> > >>>>>> plans to pursue two more. Quotes from the speech: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> * "The fifth principle is one of non-discrimination -- stating that > >>>>>> broadband providers cannot discriminate against particular Internet > >>>>>> content > >>>>>> or applications." > >>>>>> * "The sixth principle is a transparency principle -- stating that > >>>>>> providers > >>>>>> of broadband Internet access must be transparent about their network > >>>>>> management practices." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I love the sixth one, but number five gives me the willies. "Nope, > >>>>>> doesn't > >>>>>> matter that BitTorrent users bring your network to its knees, you're > >>>>>> > >> not > >> > >>>>>> allowed to do anything about it." Please tell me I'm missing > >>>>>> > >> something. > >> > >>>>>> David Smith > >>>>>> MVN.net > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>>> ---- > >>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! > >>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>>> ---- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>>> ---- > >>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! > >>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>>> ---- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>> ---- > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! > >>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>> ---- > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>> ---- > >>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! > >>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>> ---- > >>>>> > >>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >>>>> > >>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >>>>> > >>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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Join today! > >>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >>>> > >>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >>>> > >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! > >>> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >>> > >>> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > >>> > >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >>> > >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> WISPA Wants You! 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