Jack: If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at 300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized" antenna. If *MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to use a "do all" antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics?
Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. Mike At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: >Mike, > >You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum >for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all >morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more >information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC >rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will >understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a "TV-sized" >antenna is correct. > >jack > > >Mike Hammett wrote: >> >>The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. >>It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 >>meters for AP use. >> >>Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any >>different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers >>part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the same size as >>current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule >>set, minus a few reserved channels). >> >>Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed >>this at FISPA. >> >> >>----- >>Mike Hammett >>Intelligent Computing Solutions >><http://www.ics-il.com>http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> >>-------------------------------------------------- >>From: "Mike" <mailto:m...@aweiowa.com><m...@aweiowa.com> >>Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM >>To: "WISPA General List" <mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! >> >> >>> >>>Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV >>>antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. >>> >>>Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 >>>GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 >>>is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. >>> >>>Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance >>>between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the >>>square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. >>> >>>The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled >>>to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an >>>antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is >>>resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger >>>capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. >>> >>>If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self >>>interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for >>>fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band >>>instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think >>>through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. >>> >>>You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna >>>either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size >>>of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna. >>> >>>Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to >>>dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge >>>monstrosities; they aren't. >>> >>>For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around >>>44,000 miles. REALLY! >>> >>>Mike >>> >>>At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel >>>>or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the >>>>major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably >>>>get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will limit your >>>>uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small >>>>roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to >>>>be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the >>>>potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not >>>>impossible, just more complicated. >>>> >>>>Cameron >>>> >>>>Mike wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>>At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven >>>>>element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way >>>>>shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz >>>>>antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white >>>>>space. >>>>> >>>>>Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen >>>>>about enormous antennas in the "white space" is ludicrous. >>>>> >>>>>Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I >>>>>will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. >>>>> >>>>>Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter >>>>>>antennas? >>>>>> >>>>>>Scottie >>>>>> >>>>>>---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >>>>>>From: "Gino Villarini" <mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com><g...@aeronetpr.com> >>>>>>Reply-To: WISPA General List >>>>>><mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond >>>>>>>them... >>>>>>>so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz >>>>>>>channel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Gino A. Villarini >>>>>>><mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>g...@aeronetpr.com >>>>>>>Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. >>>>>>>787.273.4143 >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: >>>>>>><mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org>wireless-boun...@wispa.org >>>>>>>[mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>>>>>On >>>>>>>Behalf Of Scott Carullo >>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM >>>>>>>To: WISPA General List >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? >>>>>>>Sprint >>>>>>>used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was >>>>>>>SLOW. >>>>>>>I >>>>>>>guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my >>>>>>>radar >>>>>>>of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your >>>>>>>not >>>>>>> >>>>>>>playing the game. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Scott Carullo >>>>>>>Brevard Wireless >>>>>>>321-205-1100 x102 >>>>>>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>From: "Jack Unger" <mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com><jun...@ask-wi.com> >>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM >>>>>>>>To: "WISPA General List" >>>>>>>><mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>See the attached Case Study and Press Release. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>jack >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Jonathan Schmidt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia >>>>>>>>>Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Network >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Using 'White Spaces' >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with >>>>>>>>>TDF >>>>>>>>>Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>network >>>>>>>in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>channels. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>represents >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Webcast >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>wireless >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Interent connectivity can change their lives. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, >>>>>>>>>including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless >>>>>>>>>Internet. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify >>>>>>>>>available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Internet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>potential >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>service area to make it economically viable. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>---- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>>>>>><http://signup.wispa.org/>http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>---- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>WISPA Wireless List: <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>wireless@wispa.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>>>>>><http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Archives: >>>>>>>>><http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/>http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>>Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. >>>>>>>>Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" >>>>>>>>Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 >>>>>>>><http://www.ask-wi.com>www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 >>>>>>>><mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com>jun...@ask-wi.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>---- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>WISPA Wants You! 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Join today! >>><http://signup.wispa.org/>http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>>WISPA Wireless List: <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>wireless@wispa.org >>> >>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>><http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>>Archives: >>><http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/>http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> >> >> >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>WISPA Wants You! Join today! >><http://signup.wispa.org/>http://signup.wispa.org/ >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>WISPA Wireless List: <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>wireless@wispa.org >> >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >><http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >>Archives: >><http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/>http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >> >> > > >-- >Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. >Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" >Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 ><http://www.ask-wi.com>www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 ><mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com>jun...@ask-wi.com > >Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >WISPA Wants You! 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