Thanks Jack. I am looking forward to your insight. Mike Hammett was already so kind by referring to a wiki in a previous post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spaces_(radio)
Mike At 02:31 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: >Mike, > >I'm just finishing up work on WISPA's "Spectrum for Broadband" FCC >filing which is due today but hang with me for another hour or so >and I'll give you some background information about the FCC's TV >White Space rules as they currently stand. Once you have the context >(full view of the rules) I think you'll have a better view of why >larger (TV-type) antennas may be required for most future TV White >Space operators. No new understanding of physics is needed; just an >understanding of the current FCC rules, an understanding of what >channels may be available in what areas, and an understanding of why >you probably won't be able to simply pick a UHF channel and simply >"dwell" on it. > >jack > > >Mike wrote: >> >>Jack: >> >>If your goal is to use VHF frequencies at 54 MHz then YES you will >>need a large radiator! If your goal is to use UHF frequencies at >>300, or 500 MHz, then NO, you won't need a 'TV sized" antenna. If >>*MANY* 6 MHz wide allocations are made, then one would be stupid to >>use a "do all" antenna for all frequencies. Maybe I am missing >>something here. Perhaps a newly revised rules of physics? >> >>Mike Hammett, I am not just trying to be contrary but am willing to >>learn. UHF antennas are *MUCH* smaller than VHF antennas. >> >>Mike >> >>At 01:50 PM 10/23/2009, you wrote: >> >>> >>>Mike, >>> >>>You are correct. I'm deep into a final review of WISPA's Spectrum >>>for Broadband FCC filing right this minute (well, actually all >>>morning) but I plan to respond to Mike's points with more >>>information that he may not have about the TV White Spaces FCC >>>rules. I think once he has that additional information, he will >>>understand why your (and my) conclusion about needing a "TV-sized" >>>antenna is correct. >>> >>>jack >>> >>> >>>Mike Hammett wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>The 30 meter antenna was misconstrued from the antenna height requirements. >>>>It's required to be 10 meters or above for CPE use and no higher than 30 >>>>meters for AP use. >>>> >>>>Why would a TV antenna or a TVWS antenna on the same frequency be any >>>>different in size? Maybe some missing elements if your antenna only covers >>>>part of the band, but a full band antenna should be roughly the >>>>same size as >>>>current TV antenna. We have the use of 54 - 698 MHz (with the current rule >>>>set, minus a few reserved channels). >>>> >>>>Unless I'm missing something, which I doubt because Jack and I discussed >>>>this at FISPA. >>>> >>>> >>>>----- >>>>Mike Hammett >>>>Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>><http://www.ics-il.com>http://www.ics-il.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-------------------------------------------------- >>>>From: "Mike" <mailto:m...@aweiowa.com><m...@aweiowa.com> >>>>Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:10 PM >>>>To: "WISPA General List" <mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org> >>>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV >>>>>antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. >>>>> >>>>>Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 >>>>>GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 >>>>>is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. >>>>> >>>>>Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance >>>>>between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the >>>>>square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. >>>>> >>>>>The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled >>>>>to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an >>>>>antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is >>>>>resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger >>>>>capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher frequency. >>>>> >>>>>If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self >>>>>interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for >>>>>fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band >>>>>instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think >>>>>through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. >>>>> >>>>>You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna >>>>>either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size >>>>>of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna. >>>>> >>>>>Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to >>>>>dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge >>>>>monstrosities; they aren't. >>>>> >>>>>For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around >>>>>44,000 miles. REALLY! >>>>> >>>>>Mike >>>>> >>>>>At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel >>>>>>or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the >>>>>>major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably >>>>>>get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will limit your >>>>>>uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small >>>>>>roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to >>>>>>be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the >>>>>>potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not >>>>>>impossible, just more complicated. >>>>>> >>>>>>Cameron >>>>>> >>>>>>Mike wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven >>>>>>>element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way >>>>>>>shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz >>>>>>>antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white >>>>>>>space. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen >>>>>>>about enormous antennas in the "white space" is ludicrous. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I >>>>>>>will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter >>>>>>>>antennas? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Scottie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >>>>>>>>From: "Gino Villarini" <mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com><g...@aeronetpr.com> >>>>>>>>Reply-To: WISPA General List >>>>>>>><mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>>>Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond >>>>>>>>>them... >>>>>>>>>so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz >>>>>>>>>channel. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Gino A. Villarini >>>>>>>>><mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com>g...@aeronetpr.com >>>>>>>>>Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. >>>>>>>>>787.273.4143 >>>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>From: >>>>>>>>><mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org>wireless-boun...@wispa.org >>>>>>>>>[<mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org>mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>>>>>>>On >>>>>>>>>Behalf Of Scott Carullo >>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM >>>>>>>>>To: WISPA General List >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? >>>>>>>>>Sprint >>>>>>>>>used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was >>>>>>>>>SLOW. >>>>>>>>>I >>>>>>>>>guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my >>>>>>>>>radar >>>>>>>>>of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your >>>>>>>>>not >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>playing the game. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Scott Carullo >>>>>>>>>Brevard Wireless >>>>>>>>>321-205-1100 x102 >>>>>>>>>-------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>From: "Jack Unger" <mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com><jun...@ask-wi.com> >>>>>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM >>>>>>>>>>To: "WISPA General List" >>>>>>>>>><mailto:wireless@wispa.org><wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>See the attached Case Study and Press Release. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>jack >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Jonathan Schmidt wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia >>>>>>>>>>>Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Network >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Using 'White Spaces' >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with >>>>>>>>>>>TDF >>>>>>>>>>>Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>network >>>>>>>>>in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>channels. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>represents >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Webcast >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>wireless >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Interent connectivity can change their lives. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, >>>>>>>>>>>including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless >>>>>>>>>>>Internet. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify >>>>>>>>>>>available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Internet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>potential >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>service area to make it economically viable. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>>>>>>>><http://signup.wispa.org/>http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>WISPA Wireless List: <mailto:wireless@wispa.org>wireless@wispa.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>>>>>>>><http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Archives: >>>>>>>>>>><http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/>http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>>>>Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. >>>>>>>>>>Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" >>>>>>>>>>Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 >>>>>>>>>><http://www.ask-wi.com>www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 >>>>>>>>>><mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com>jun...@ask-wi.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>WISPA Wants You! 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