Not as many may be opposed as you'd think. After all, up until DBS, a significant number of people had those antennas on their house for TV.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -------------------------------------------------- From: "ccrum" <cc...@dot11net.com> Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 2:08 PM To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! > Mike, you are certainly correct about the propagation characteristics. > This is both good and bad depending on how people plan to deploy. I > think that a lot of people are thinking that this space will let you > have a self installed, desktop unit because of the NLOS and indoor > penetration. My point is that units like these would have trouble on the > uplink because they would have low power and possibly negative gain. A > yagi, while a good technical solution is visibly unattractive and I know > that many of my customers would not allow me to install one. A panel > with similar gain characteristics to a yagi will be large (compared to > what people are used to) at these frequencies, again a barrier to > overcome to convince some customers. I'm not arguing either...30m is way > out there, but 24x24 panel is not, and would probably still be pretty > low gain, depending on if it is a patch, array of dipoles, or whatever. > That size antenna on the roof will be a turn off to a lot of customers. > Also, on the towers, to get decent gain (assuming that the power > limitations will be very low) on a linearly polarized, broad beam > antenna, the antenna will be larger than anything people have seen to > date. Yagi's and lp's won't work here. Again a lot will depend on how > the networks are designed and deployed, but my feeling is that because > of the (assumed) power constraints that will most likely be placed on > the band, and the size limitations that will be a necessity on the > towers, a given network may well end up with more towers, not fewer as > one would assume because of the better propagation characteristics. > Lower frequency is not the end all panacea that many are hoping for. > > Regards, > > Cameron > > Mike wrote: >> Well the comments I've heard ARE ludicrous. Antennas as big as a TV >> antenna, 30 meter antennas, and others. >> >> Free space path loss is greater at 5.8 GHz than at 2.4 >> GHz. Substantially. Free space path loss at 700 MHz, or 600 or 500 >> is also SUBSTANTIALLY lesser than at 2.4 GHz. >> >> Free space path loss is proportional to the square of the distance >> between the transmitter and receiver, and also proportional to the >> square of the FREQUENCY of the radio signal. >> >> The FREQUENCY effect of the free space path loss is directly coupled >> to the aperture of the antenna, which describes how sensitive an >> antenna is to an incoming electromagnetic wave for which it is >> resonant. Lower frequency equates to a larger aperture, and a larger >> capture area for similar antennas, as compared to a much higher >> frequency. >> >> If it is indeed a narrow band, then of course the chances of self >> interference are there. The propagation characteristics of UHF for >> fixed wireless are what cause me to want to "play" in this band >> instead of some new allocation in the microwave regions. Think >> through the trees, over the horizon, near line of site possibilities. >> >> You also can't just reinvent the Yagi-Yuda or log periodic antenna >> either. The sizes I stated for those frequencies ARE the full size >> of an antenna, not some miniaturized or "rabbit ear" antenna. >> >> Actually, I don't even think I'm arguing anything, just trying to >> dispel a belief that white space antennas are these huge >> monstrosities; they aren't. >> >> For what it's worth, my personal record for distance on UHF is around >> 44,000 miles. REALLY! >> >> Mike >> >> At 12:20 PM 10/23/2009,Cameron wrote: >> >>> It is not "ludacrous". Sure you can receive with a small yagi or panel >>> or heck, even a set of rabbit ears. It's the uplink that will be the >>> major issue. If you are using small cells for coverage you can probably >>> get away with "smaller" antennas on the towers, but this will limit your >>> uplink capability if you are wanting a desktop type CPE or even a small >>> roof mount antenna. Small cell coverage like with uW freqs will have to >>> be carefully planned due to the propagation characteristics and the >>> potential for self interfernece on such a narrow band. It's not >>> impossible, just more complicated. >>> >>> Cameron >>> >>> Mike wrote: >>> >>>> At 704 MHz, a quarter wave is about 4 inches long. The driven >>>> element of a Yagi would be about 8 inches long. They would be way >>>> shorter than 30 meters, or what do you mean? Think about the 900 MHz >>>> antennas you see but just a little bigger for the upper UHF white >>>> space. >>>> >>>> Ch 52 is 698 MHz. Ch 69 is 800 MHz. Some of the talk I've seen >>>> about enormous antennas in the "white space" is ludicrous. >>>> >>>> Give me ANY part of it and the radios to use it and I >>>> will. Propagation would be superior to anything we're using now. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> At 07:46 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> What equipment are they using? Did they have to do the 30 meter >>>>> antennas? >>>>> >>>>> Scottie >>>>> >>>>> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >>>>> From: "Gino Villarini" <g...@aeronetpr.com> >>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:05:22 -0400 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> IIRC, 6 mhz channels were proponed on the FCC RO, you could bond >>>>>> them... >>>>>> so with current OFDM technologies you can get 10 - 12 Mbps on a 6 mhz >>>>>> channel. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not bad for a NLOS, self install and mobile probability >>>>>> >>>>>> Gino A. Villarini >>>>>> g...@aeronetpr.com >>>>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. >>>>>> 787.273.4143 >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Scott Carullo >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:58 AM >>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My question is how fast can their internet go using tv whitespace? >>>>>> Sprint >>>>>> used to serve this area with an unutilized tv channel and it was >>>>>> SLOW. >>>>>> I >>>>>> guess if you had nothing else but if it can't go one MB its not on my >>>>>> radar >>>>>> of concern. Actually in our market if you cant deliver 10-20MB your >>>>>> not >>>>>> >>>>>> playing the game. >>>>>> >>>>>> Scott Carullo >>>>>> Brevard Wireless >>>>>> 321-205-1100 x102 >>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Jack Unger" <jun...@ask-wi.com> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 11:49 AM >>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Holy cow! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> See the attached Case Study and Press Release. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> jack >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jonathan Schmidt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dell, Microsoft Launching Broadband Net In Rural Virginia >>>>>>>> Computer Companies Join TDF Foundation, Spectrum Bridge To Debut >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Network >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Using 'White Spaces' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> John Eggerton -- Multichannel News, 10/21/2009 3:47:19 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Computer companies Dell and Microsoft are scheduled to join with >>>>>>>> TDF >>>>>>>> Foundation and Spectrum Bridge Wednesday to launch a broadband >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> network >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> rural Virginia, using the so-called white spaces between TV >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> channels. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> House Communications Subcommitee Chairman Rick Boucher, who >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> represents >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> rural Virginia, is scheduled to be on hand as the companies host a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Webcast >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> with residents of an Appalachian community talking about how >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> wireless >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Interent connectivity can change their lives. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The government is currently working on a national broadband plan, >>>>>>>> including freeing up even more spectrum space for wireless >>>>>>>> Internet. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Spectrum Bridge, a sort of Ebay for identifying available spectrum >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> secondary markets, launched a Web site in February to help identify >>>>>>>> available open TV channels. The site can be used by wireless >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> Internet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> providers to figure out whether there is enough spectrum in a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> potential >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> service area to make it economically viable. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. >>>>>>> Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs" >>>>>>> Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 >>>>>>> www.ask-wi.com 818-227-4220 jun...@ask-wi.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my Pizzicato PluckString... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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